Chilling your tank before topping off

The early Slocum Gliders were very simple machines using compressed air to "blow" the ballast tank to begin their long glide back to the surface.

To ensure there was enough air volume at a high enough pressure to overcome the water pressure and completely empty the ballast tank after the Slocum had glided down to its desired max depth - the air cylinder was charged to the required pressure at a temperature of 50°F lower than the lowest ocean temperature that the Slocum would encounter.

Using this little trick, I chill my tank in a refrigerator before topping it off after a week's shooting.

I top off the chilled tank to 250 bar with the compressor and gain an additional bar or two as the tank warms to ambient instead of losing pressure as the tank cools down from the heat of compression.
 
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You should see a 10-30 bar increase. If I'm looking for a real 4500psi fill I use a five gallon bucket filled with ice. I let the tank cool for 10-15min then start the fill. When it's done, I let it sit for another 30min and top it off gaining a 50-60 bar overfill in summer time weather. IN the winter it's typically a 30bar overfill.
 
You should see a 10-30 bar increase. If I'm looking for a real 4500psi fill I use a five gallon bucket filled with ice. I let the tank cool for 10-15min then start the fill. When it's done, I let it sit for another 30min and top it off gaining a 50-60 bar overfill in summer time weather. IN the winter it's typically a 30bar overfill.
At the range, after top off, with the tank at ambient temperature, the inlet gauge of my ATP RegMan will indicate somewhere between 250 bar and 300 bar depending on ambient.

My goal is to run my compressor once to 250 bar and let nature ensure I get 250 bar or greater. As such I have never recorded the actual pressure gained.
 
We need more compressors like the old Shoebox - it runs so much cooler that this is never an issue for me; I only lose a few bar on "cool down," mostly because the output air charge is under 100F. My cylinders never get above 85F, so the air will be hotter than that, but not by more than 15 degrees or so . . . so there is not a lot of "shrinkage" occurring. ;)

Part of the magic in it running so much cooler is that it really is a three stage compressor, but it has the first stage off loaded to a shop compressor. That allows the input air to the Shoebox to be back down at ambient, with all the heat from the first stage of compression already eliminated. So in the end it does much less actual compression than the all in one units. Add in that I get to fully "dry" my air before the high pressure compression with desiccant filters and it truly is a winning formula.

I really wish others would bring out an updated version . . .
 
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We need more compressors like the old Shoebox - it runs so much cooler that this is never an issue for me; I only lose a few bar on "cool down," mostly because the output air charge is under 100F. My cylinders never get above 85F, so the air will be hotter than that, but not by more than 15 degrees or so . . . so there is not a lot of "shrinkage" occurring. ;)

Part of the magic in it running so much cooler is that it really is a three stage compressor, but it has the first stage off loaded to a shop compressor. That allows the input air to the Shoebox to be back down at ambient, with all the heat from the first stage of compression already eliminated. So in the end it does much less actual compression than the all in one units. Add in that I get to fully "dry" my air before the high pressure compression with desiccant filters and it truly is a winning formula.

I really wish others would bring out an updated version . . .
Any pictures; I'm having a time visualizing the "first stage off loaded to a shop compressor."
 
Actually it is a lot of fiddling for little gain. I just fill it where it ends it ends. When needed just fill it again. lol. Actually if you mess around a bit you will realize you never loose anything on a fill. It’s there didn’t leak out (hopefully)…just put the tank in the sunlight and it won’t take long and your fill will be where you started.
 
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To me, it seems like more work than letting tank cool for an hour or so & then bumping it up to required psi. I like to work smarter, not harder but to each, his own as the saying goes.
The frige is next to my compressor, the compressor is next to my bong, my bong holds my stash of Durban Poison .....

Put the bottle in the fridge.
Pack the bowl.
Stoke the bong.
Crank up Pu$$y Riot.
Get high for 40 some minutes .
Remove the bottle from the fridge.
Connect it to the compressor.
Start the compressor.
Crank up "I TOOK A PILL IN IBIZA"
Before Posner is done the compressor is finished.
The bottle and I keep getting higher.
When Posner is done and the bowl is nearly smashed, I crank up " Napalm Sticks To Kids" and doze off remembering my youth serving God and Country.

I enjoy working harder! Why let the compressor have all the fun?!?.
 
Mr. George at SeaDivers in Ozark, Al. (R.I.P.) would fill tanks while submerged in water. He would let them cool 20 minutes or so then top them off. He was a life long diver and instructor and at 80+ years old I could listen to his stories for hours. He also had a showcase in his shop that contained many of the items he found diving. He knew every piece, when and where he found it. Some very interesting stuff.
He kinda took a shine to me and would let me hang around while he filled my tanks or did the visual testing on them. If he was busy and didn't have time to fill/test my tanks while I waited he would loan me a full tank to use until it needed refilled than take it back and pick mine up. It was a 2 hour round trip for me.
He charged me $4 to fill a tank, $8 for visual + a full fill and $24 for hydro + a full fill.
Definitely one of the good guys.
Oh yeah, he put a sticker on my tank that read "not for diving" to get me around not being a certified diver. I still have 2 scuba tanks with the stickers on them. I fill them at home and use them for tethering.
 
Any pictures; I'm having a time visualizing the "first stage off loaded to a shop compressor."
Sure, but the pictures don't really tell the story - the math does (sorry, but I do love math ;) ). The first picture is the basic set up, and you can see the shop air hose feeding into the top of the Shoebox after having passed through a manifold consisting of a big Silica desiccant drier, as smaller molecular sieve drier, a 0.2 micron particulate filter, then a regulator. The shop compressor is not in the picture - it is in my garage, a long way from the Shoebox compressor which is in my basement workshop, fed by a manifold system I put in my house. The second picture is the inside of the unit, with the air feeding in from the top down to a 0.25" first cylinder (second stage of compression, with the shop compressor being the first), then that flows into a 0.125" second cylinder (third and final stage of compression).

You have to remember that with compression, it is all about volume reduction - think compression ratio of your car's engine cylinders. The pressure itself varies in the process due to temperature (and combustion in your car's engine) and other factors like van der Whals forces (which we often ignore for simplicity, which holds pretty true up to about 250 bar or so), but the key is how much the volume changes. Since we are compressing our air from one bar to ~300 bar, we need to reduce the volume that air occupies by ~300 times. That is simply too much compression to do in one step, so it is done in multiple stages.

The way to think of approximating what has to happen in each stage is to take the root of the total ratio of compression, and since the Shoebox "system" consists of three total stages that would be the cube root; for 300 bar, the cube root results in a value of about 6.7 for each stage, and that is close to what we get from the shop compressor in the first stage - we can feed the Shoebox air at up to 125 psi, and I use 105 psi to both lighten the load and better balance with the shop compressor. 105 psi is 7.2 bar, so it slightly "overachieves" on what is needed for the first stage.

It is common for some to think that the compression happens in terms of dividing up the load equally in terms of pressure, but that is incorrect - it is done by volume reduction. With 3 stages and a ~6.7:1 ratio, the three stages would result in approximately the following pressures, after everything returns to ambient temperatures:

- First stage: ~6.7 bar, 97 psi
- Second stage: ~44.9 bar, 651 psi
- Third stage: ~300 bar, 4360 psi

While that "looks" very imbalanced in terms of the pressures that result, the percentage change in volume is approximately the same in all three stage (again, simplifying a bit by ignoring van der Whals forces, but these are accounted for in compressor design). Since the change in volume is the same in all three stages, the work done is the same in all three stages. So the temperature rise from the total work done is approximately the same for all three stages.

Since that first stage is completely separate from the Shoebox, the air charge can be fully cooled back to ambient before entering it. I make sure that is the case by running the shop compressor well in advance of my use (in fact it pretty much sits full all the time, ready for use of any kind at any point). That completely eliminates 1/3 of the heat of the compression. Add in that I blast those air lines inside my Shoebox to cool them high airflow with the cover off and it stays relatively cool. The other thing that helps keep things cool is that with three stages the air does not get as hot during each stage of compression, and there is opportunity to cool that charge down a bit between stages.

All the good dive compressors run with either three or four stages of compression, and that is done to help mange the loads and improve cooling. With four stages of compression, the compression ratio only has to be about 4:1 to get to 300 bar. Four stages of compression is simply awesome, especially when done with adequate air charge cooling between stages - but three stages works very well too when designed properly.

That leads to one of the key short comings in most small Chinese compressors today - they run just two stages (note that some of the GX pumps run four stages, which is a good thing). With two stages we have to take the square root of 300, resulting in compression ratios of over 17:1 - that is like a diesel engine feeding another diesel engine. That makes for high heat that is difficult to fully reject between stages, and high loads. So the design parameters call for a more robust overall design to handle the loads and heat, but the compressors are made as cheaply as possible - clearly not a recipe for a long service life . . .

As I said in my first post, I think it would be great for somebody to bring out a new compressor designed along the lines of the the Shoebox. It would serve us well.

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We need more compressors like the old Shoebox - it runs so much cooler that this is never an issue for me; I only lose a few bar on "cool down," mostly because the output air charge is under 100F. My cylinders never get above 85F, so the air will be hotter than that, but not by more than 15 degrees or so . . . so there is not a lot of "shrinkage" occurring. ;)

Part of the magic in it running so much cooler is that it really is a three stage compressor, but it has the first stage off loaded to a shop compressor. That allows the input air to the Shoebox to be back down at ambient, with all the heat from the first stage of compression already eliminated. So in the end it does much less actual compression than the all in one units. Add in that I get to fully "dry" my air before the high pressure compression with desiccant filters and it truly is a winning formula.

I really wish others would bring out an updated version . . .
I had the chance to buy an original Shoebox New (never used ) in the box @ the new Indiana Show this spring and stupidly i did not ( $ 500) Kicking my self ever since !
 
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As I said in my first post, I think it would be great for somebody to bring out a new compressor designed along the lines of the the Shoebox. It would serve us well.

View attachment 580820View attachment 580821
There was one, but it looks like it is no longer available.
 
There was one, but it looks like it is no longer available.
While I understand why people would think they are similar in terms of design concept - since most people call both "booster pumps" - they really are very different . . .

The Shoebox really is not a booster pump. It is a multi-stage mechanical pump. In fact, it can operate on its own without a shop compressor acting as the first stage and still deliver air at ~300 bar - but in doing so it becomes a two stage air compressor (with all the drawbacks) and operates at about 1/7th the already slow speed it currently does as the air feeding it is 1/7th as dense that way (so it becomes painfully slow at that point, but it would work).

A true booster pump (set up to work off a shop compressor) uses the feed air from the shop compressor as both the air that is compressed up to high pressure, but also as the power source for the compression. Since the compression works on the principle of balance of force through fluids acting on pistons of different size, a booster pump goes from ~7or 8 bar to 300 in once step, using about 90% of the shop air compressors output to power the compression stroke. As a result, it takes a LOT of shop air to run one at even slow speeds, so high output shop compressors are needed for these. They work great in terms of robustness in the right application, but are very energy inefficient compared to a direct mechanical compressor, which the Shoebox is.

In the end, a booster pump and the shop compressor needed to run it will cost far more than a Shoebox compressor with a shop compressor sized to run it - pretty much any shop compressor can feed a Shoebox; even a battery powered pancake compressor could let it work as designed.
 
I had the chance to buy an original Shoebox New (never used ) in the box @ the new Indiana Show this spring and stupidly i did not ( $ 500) Kicking my self ever since !
I get it, but I can also understand passing on it . . . "new in the box" really is not an ideal state when talking about something made years ago by a company that no longer is in business, without parts support. To me, it would be better to know that it actually worked and did not have any infant mortality issues, and actually worked the last time it was used before the sale. Also, asking for the full retail price (at the time the company stopped selling them) for any of them is a big ask. In fact, I bought one a few years back to keep as a backup to my Shoebox that was just like that - it was purchased in the last few months of production but only used for less than ten hours by somebody that decided they like springers better . . . I paid $300 for that one.

I do think they are fabulous compressors and have no desire to move on to anything else, but I certainly don't think of them as having any "collector value," and if the price is to keep using one is about the same as the GX CS4 I'd have to consider going with the GX . . . so I wouldn't beat yourself up over the choice.
 
I have tried in the past, fill the tank to a max my YH can do - let all cool down for an hour - started again filling to a max - and repeated couple times.
The gain is not justifying the amount of work and my time.
Get a larger tank instead, some 12L or 14L ...
I have three 14L, each holds more then 7-800 shots when tethering at my BR, but I never counted actually . I allways have one tank full for case of emergency :) .
My refilling work party is about ones a month.
 
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I get it, but I can also understand passing on it . . . "new in the box" really is not an ideal state when talking about something made years ago by a company that no longer is in business, without parts support. To me, it would be better to know that it actually worked and did not have any infant mortality issues, and actually worked the last time it was used before the sale. Also, asking for the full retail price (at the time the company stopped selling them) for any of them is a big ask. In fact, I bought one a few years back to keep as a backup to my Shoebox that was just like that - it was purchased in the last few months of production but only used for less than ten hours by somebody that decided they like springers better . . . I paid $300 for that one.

I do think they are fabulous compressors and have no desire to move on to anything else, but I certainly don't think of them as having any "collector value," and if the price is to keep using one is about the same as the GX CS4 I'd have to consider going with the GX . . . so I wouldn't beat yourself up over the choice.
yes but you can feed it from a nitrogen tank , but with a little ingenuity you can do the same with a GX?
 
yes but you can feed it from a nitrogen tank , but with a little ingenuity you can do the same with a GX?
I don't see any reason that one could not do it except that I think you'd have to regulate the nitrogen down to a much lower level - probably down to under 5 psi or so on the output. But with the right regulator that should be no problem . . .