Standardized Moderator Testing (free), Discussion Thread

[Stubbers]

I'm sorry. My bad? I figured just giving you approximations off the top of my head would work for you.
But your point is well made.

WE ALL ARE ALLOWED TO SPEAK OUR MINDS AS WE PLEASE... not just you.
Maybe you would do as well as I to try to remember that?

Just keep standing out there telling us how futile any effort to improve things is going to be.
We will leave the porch light on and the door open. You join us any time you want.

I never said you couldn't speak your mind, you're the one who tried to shut me out on your last post.

From my understanding its prohibited to discuss the production of moderators here, so I'll keep my porch light on as well, just shining towards things this site deem acceptable.

-Matt

 

[OldSpook]

I never said you couldn't speak your mind, you're the one who tried to shut me out on your last post.

Why don't you take a deep breath and relax?

From my understanding its prohibited to discuss the production of moderators here,

Your understanding is wrong. Perhaps you should take it up with management, clever fellow.

so I'll keep my porch light on as well, just shining towards things this site deem acceptable.

Yeah, yesterday I addressed something in that regard in my status page. Maybe you should read it.

Nobody here is trying to sell "snake oil". The lot of us have been trying to solve a problem. You think the problem is intractable. Those of us working it do not. What advantage is there for you to climb up on a soap box and tell us all how stupid and dishonest you think we are?

Why do you care how we spend our time?

 

[Stubbers]

Why don't you take a deep breath and relax?

Your understanding is wrong. Perhaps you should take it up with management, clever fellow.

Yeah, yesterday I addressed something in that regard in my status page. Maybe you should read it.

Nobody here is trying to sell "snake oil". The lot of us have been trying to solve a problem. You think the problem is intractable. Those of us working it do not. What advantage is there for you to climb up on a soap box and tell us all how stupid and dishonest you think we are?

Why do you care how we spend our time?

I never said the problem was intractable.

Not sure why you're spot lighting me right now when I only echo'd what Bucket Boy said, he had the original sentiment, yet you're letting your focus be on me, heh...

I don't care how you spend your time. I do care for other members who get swindled into thinking this weeks moderator is the latest and greatest...if ya don't like my attempt to shield people from what I deem is snake oil, then continue on about your day...after-all this is just a forum made for opinions, to which is what I am sharing, nothing more and nothing less, how is that stopping or preventing you from enjoying yourself?

-Matt

 

[OldSpook]

I never said the problem was intractable.

Not sure why you're spot lighting me right now when I only echo'd what Bucket Boy said, he had the original sentiment, yet you're letting your focus be on me, heh...

You are the loudest voice.

I don't care how you spend your time.

Prove it.

I do care for other members who get swindled into thinking this weeks moderator is the latest and greatest...if ya don't like my attempt to shield people from what I deem is snake oil, then continue on about your day...after-all this is just a forum made for opinions, to which is what I am sharing, nothing more and nothing less, how is that stopping or preventing you from enjoying yourself?

-Matt

So am I to assume you think that I am someone the forum needs to be protected from? I am getting that vibe. What might I do to reassure you the forum can take care of itself without you riding to the rescue?

~|~ Mike

 

[WobblyHand]

Gentlemen, calm down. Don't take the bait, both of you.

I'm in it to know more. What makes a moderator more effective? How can it be optimized within constraints?

 

[OldSpook]

Gentlemen, calm down. Don't take the bait, both of you.

I'm in it to know more. What makes a moderator more effective? How can it be optimized within constraints?

 

[Stubbers]

You are the loudest voice.

Prove it.

So am I to assume you think that I am someone the forum needs to be protected from? I am getting that vibe. What might I do to reassure you the forum can take care of itself without you riding to the rescue?

1) How am I the loudest voice? It's no louder than yours here...I'll easily bow out and let you continue this discussion with others who share the same opinion.

2) How can I prove it?

3) Are you selling custom moderators on this forum? If so maybe it does apply to you...

To be honest, this forum shouldn't even facilitate members in selling custom moderators in its marketplace anymore than the discussion of creating said moderators, it very much borderlines rule # 14...

"Clandestine advertising is not permitted. It is our policy to only allow sponsored vendors to have a retail voice on AGN."...

Yet here we are with members designing/making moderators and releasing them in classifieds, it is what it is, but its strange to see the recent activities of it going on as I recall STO got shut down trying to do similar here...

-Matt

 

[WobblyHand]

Nothing defeatist about it from where I stand, I've made it clear I look forward to the day major leaps are made...its just not today, nor has there been any as of late...

I'm very unbiased here, the ones who are biased likely have a horse and a carriage to sell you...

-Matt

I've not bought any horses and carriages lately, nor do I have any to sell, of any kind. Haven't bought any moderators, from any vendor, only have printed a couple of my own. So I have no commercial interest in any outcome.

 

[OldSpook]

1) How am I the loudest voice? It's no louder than yours here...I'll easily bow out and let you continue this discussion with others who share the same opinion.

2) How can I prove it?

3) Are you selling custom moderators on this forum? If so maybe it does apply to you...

To be honest, this forum shouldn't even facilitate members in selling custom moderators in its marketplace anymore than the discussion of creating said moderators, it very much borderlines rule # 14...

"Clandestine advertising is not permitted. It is our policy to only allow sponsored vendors to have a retail voice on AGN."...

Yet here we are with members designing/making moderators and releasing them in classifieds, it is what it is, but its strange to see the recent activities of it going on as I recall STO got shut down trying to do similar here...

-Matt

I think we have arrived at your problem and it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with studying moderators. That was just your excuse for saying the things you have been saying. By all means, if you think I have violated the rules here, report me.

So you think you were responsible for STO getting shut down on this site?

 

[Stubbers]

Gentlemen, calm down. Don't take the bait, both of you.

I'm in it to know more. What makes a moderator more effective? How can it be optimized within constraints?

I think that discussion is prohibited as of late, but I believe Bucket Boy covered that fairly well in post #4. Producing a device that is leaps and bounds better than what is currently on the market would be an amazing feat and I look forward to the day its accomplished...until then post #4 about sums it up.

-Matt

 

[OldSpook]

I've not bought any horses and carriages lately, nor do I have any to sell, of any kind. Haven't bought any moderators, from any vendor, only have printed a couple of my own. So I have no commercial interest in any outcome.

I look forward to be offered the opportunity to test devices with as much impartiality as I can muster. Clearly that precludes me testing any of my own making, which is sad but understandable.

 

[OldSpook]

I think that discussion is prohibited as of late, but I believe Bucket Boy covered that fairly well in post #4. Producing a device that is leaps and bounds better than what is currently on the market would be an amazing feat and I look forward to the day its accomplished...until then post #4 about sums it up.

-Matt

Maybe you have misinterpreted what you have read. Perhaps you should check with management. A number of threads which I flagged last night were taken down but have since been put back up. That probably happened while you were sleeping.

It seems to me as if you feel that we need a rule which precludes any such discussion at all?

 

[WobblyHand]

I think that discussion is prohibited as of late, but I believe Bucket Boy covered that fairly well in post #4. Producing a device that is leaps and bounds better than what is currently on the market would be an amazing feat and I look forward to the day its accomplished...until then post #4 about sums it up.

-Matt

Yes, it seems open discussion about construction details are no longer allowed.

Post #4 really is a summation of rules of thumb, unfortunately it doesn't answer how to optimize within constraints - there's an unknown cost function. So people will continue muddling in the dark. Think I'll be teaching myself CFD instead. Might not solve the original issue, but at least I'll learn a new skill and gather some more insight.

 

[Stubbers]

I've not bought any horses and carriages lately, nor do I have any to sell, of any kind. Haven't bought any moderators, from any vendor, only have printed a couple of my own. So I have no commercial interest in any outcome.

Are you biased though? Are you absolutely certain there is room to improve upon the current applied physics in today's designs?

I myself am uncertain, but I lean towards there being not much meat left on the bones short of huge advancements that integrate a digital style 'wipe' that traps trailing gases, would I love to be wrong...heck yes. I have interests in seeing advancements in any shape or form be them in airgun moderators or otherwise, heck we've seen a lot of advancements as of late when it comes to pcp's, however moderators not so much, and there is likely reasons why, which have been covered.

-Matt

 

[Stubbers]

Yes, it seems open discussion about details are no longer allowed.

Post #4 really is a summation of rules of thumb, unfortunately it doesn't answer how to optimize within constraints - there's an unknown cost function. So people will continue muddling in the dark. Think I'll be teaching myself CFD instead. Might not solve the original issue, but at least I'll learn a new skill and gather some more insight.

CFD very well may be the next best approach, however I am sure companies with already commercial vested interest have gone down this route. Imagine being the guy that advances the tech so far with patent in hand, it leaves every other competitor trailing far behind...

Even if you give away the design and concept for free, you'd still go down in history, at least in my book!

-Matt

 

[OldSpook]

Yes, it seems open discussion about construction details are no longer allowed.

Post #4 really is a summation of rules of thumb, unfortunately it doesn't answer how to optimize within constraints - there's an unknown cost function. So people will continue muddling in the dark. Think I'll be teaching myself CFD instead. Might not solve the original issue, but at least I'll learn a new skill and gather some more insight.

Have a look at my most recent status post. The problem yesterday was the discussion of PB specific thread patterns. I think it got muddled up quite a bit by subsequent arguments.

I haven't gotten a really clear statement from management but they made it very clear that those thread patterns were the triggering issue...

ONE WONDERS who might have made and deleted that post.
@Stubbers any idea? You were reading that thread and might have posted in it.

Here is the definitive statement in the thread which was revived.

So testing is all we can do PUBLICLY. Those of us who are interested in this problem can still discuss things amongst ourselves, even if we have to take it off platform. @Stubbers is happy and we get to continue talking shop.

That will serve the needs of the AGN community because we will be reviewing commercial offerings, the construction of which is publicly available, but which we can not discuss here? This is still confusing but... we will muddle through.

 

[WobblyHand]

Have a look at my most recent status post. The problem yesterday was the discussion of PB specific thread patterns. I think it got muddled up quite a bit by subsequent arguments.

I haven't gotten a really clear statement from management but they made it very clear that those thread patterns were the triggering issue...

ONE WONDERS who might have made and deleted that post.
@Stubbers any idea? You were reading that thread and might have posted in it.

I thought it was the PB thread sizes that did in that thread. But other posts were taken down as well. Not all, there are some remnants remaining in other posts, but who knows if that will change tonight.

Seemed to have touched a nerve in any case. Will have to wait and see what shakes out. It would be a good topic to discuss - how to actually improve the quality of offerings available. That would help the whole AG community, at least in jurisdictions that allow it. But at the moment, it's unclear what if any technical details can be disclosed.

 

[Stubbers]

Have a look at my most recent status post. The problem yesterday was the discussion of PB specific thread patterns. I think it got muddled up quite a bit by subsequent arguments.

I haven't gotten a really clear statement from management but they made it very clear that those thread patterns were the triggering issue...

ONE WONDERS who might have made and deleted that post.
@Stubbers any idea? You were reading that thread and might have posted in it.

Here is the definitive statement in the thread which was revived.

So testing is all we can do PUBLICLY. Those of us who are interested in this problem can still discuss things amongst ourselves, even if we have to take it off platform. @Stubbers is happy and we get to continue talking shop.

No idea who deleted their post, wasn't I and I'd happily admit if it were...


My happiness isn't swayed one way or another by anything you say or think, or if the discussion is prohibited or not.

-Matt

 

[OldSpook]

Idea idea who deleted their post, wasn't I and I'd happily admit if it were...


My happiness isn't swayed one way or another by anything you say or think, or if the discussion is prohibited or not.

-Matt

Oh make no mistake. Your happiness like mine is irrelevant. Didn't anyone tell you?

 

[OldSpook]

Sooo

It's that last three decibels that separates the scientist from the snake oil.

So yeah, your are right, it's really hard to build a GOOD moderator if the only thing a moderator does is silence a muzzle blast. That's why you are willing to spend $200 or $250 bucks for an aluminum tube that costs a buck fifty with fifty cents worth of washers and some "magic" plastic hair curlers, inside of it. It's hard to beat a simple EMPTY can... just ask FX.

That said, a good moderator does more than just silence muzzle blast. A good moderator is lighter, smaller, does not affect POI and cleanly strips the gasses from around the projectile so that accuracy can actually be improved. A good moderator is a BLEND of these characteristics which satisfy the requirements of a specific shooting situation.


~!~ Mike

@WobblyHand does that sound like it's on topic?