Is Open class suffering a slow death?

[beerthief]

Kdog, I believe I stated I was hoping to try the Open class next year. At 75 I'm not sure if I will be able to do it without a few physical therapy sessions. With total knee replacements I think the kneeling shots will only be done standing for lack of range of motion as they are now. The hunter class either sits on the ground or uses a bucket / seat without a back or arms on them. As far a shooting goes I practice as much as anyone and I shoot Benchrest usually most of the winter. In 2010 I won my first and only National in the Hunter PCP class. Over the last 12 years I have placed in the top five most of that time and won a few GP's on the journey. Actually, I am hoping and planning for another title this year (But have learned at my age somethings don't always pan out the way you would like them to). If the Open class doesn't work out for me next year I might even try Hunter piston. I have been wanting to for the last few years but still challenged for one more PCP title.
My days of FT are likely on the other side of the Hill but I would Love to shoot the Worlds here in the U.S.A in 2024. As far a Hunter PCP goes there is an abundant of Hunter PCP shooters trying the best with scopes that will not range well enough on 16X to allow them to shoot higher scores. Sure, likely some of them could shoot open but they like the hunter class or not ready for another big investment. I'm far from alone in wanting parity with the other classes on the scope ranging issue and I think just 24x would work a heck of a lot better than 16x we all use now. If we could make that materialize I think it would be beneficial to the Hunter class for years to come and a lot less complaining overall.

Mike T, I realize if I could do the Open PCP class that many benefits would come with that privilege and if I could do it I will at least add one more member to class roster.

Beer Thief, Fields do take up a lot less room for a course and a lot of two day GP's have one day in the field and the other in the woods. The only negative of field shooting is the wind and where the sun is at the time you are shooting it. I personally like the field / woods for it breaks the FT shooting up.

I was saying to set up a practice course , more localized ,if my land was a bit safer i would have a single lane open But the lane is on at least a 45% angle leading to a 70 foot drop . I just now remembered the bunch in Florida that set up sundays once a month on a gulf course .
Also i am inquiring about a couple lanes set up at my gun club .

 

[K]

If you want Open to grow, start offering serious prize money for match high score.

 

[thomasair]

There you go.

 

[BC]

If you want Open to grow, start offering serious prize money for match high score.

that wont happen because clubs only charge enough to cover basic expenses like spray paint, wd 40 for targets, paper targets, etc. Even in the UK where they shoot big events very often, the winners just get a big cup, and maybe a prize gun. No cash tho....you have to do EBR or RMC in Utah for that. That requires more guns and bigger lead and more expenses just to play that game.

 

[thomasair]

Bill…I don’t think Keith was being serious, but it would get people to shoot open that normally don’t.

 

[Airgunoregon]

that wont happen because clubs only charge enough to cover basic expenses like spray paint, wd 40 for targets, paper targets, etc. Even in the UK where they shoot big events very often, the winners just get a big cup, and maybe a prize gun. No cash tho....you have to do EBR or RMC in Utah for that. That requires more guns and bigger lead and more expenses just to play that game.

Utah Air Guns and Arizona/AOA ARE manufactures/dealers and the expenses and prize money they provide can be an advertising tradeoff/tax write off expenses.... Not so with AAFTA.

But, finally with a little nudge by myself, the BoG has taken over the working with the vendors for prizes... not cash as yet. Over time I think they will build up enough vendor relationships, that we can move into that position.

Match fees & attendance would most likely have to go up for cash prizes to be part of the mix when I've evaluated the P&L of hosting the events I've hosted.

So, yes, I do believe prize money can be part of AAFTA events IF we plan it out right and the competitors are willing to pony up about twice the current match fees.

Wayne

 

[Motorhead]

Utah Air Guns and Arizona/AOA ARE manufactures/dealers and the expenses and prize money they provide can be an advertising tradeoff/tax write off expenses.... Not so with AAFTA.

But, finally with a little nudge by myself, the BoG has taken over the working with the vendors for prizes... not cash as yet. Over time I think they will build up enough vendor relationships, that we can move into that position.

Match fees & attendance would most likely have to go up for cash prizes to be part of the mix when I've evaluated the P&L of hosting the events I've hosted.

So, yes, I do believe prize money can be part of AAFTA events IF we plan it out right and the competitors are willing to pony up about twice the current match fees.

Wayne

Can only speak for myself ... The game of Field Target if purses/ prizes and money was on the line ... increases in entry fees etc to justify it etc ...
I WOULD BE DONE having Zero interest in such a game.

 

[thomasair]

It you want to screw it up….just let some big sponsors in to get control. It would draw more “people”….but the shooters would leave. If they want to donate stuff without “owning” the event…that wouldn’t hurt.

Mike

 

[Franklink]

It you want to screw it up….just let some big sponsors in to get control...... If they want to donate stuff without “owning” the event…that wouldn’t hurt.

Mike

100%

I'm not against prize money but there currently seems to be some confusion in competitive airgunning about what sponsorship entails.....

spon·sor
/ˈspänsər/
noun
1.An individual or organization that pays some or all of the costs involved in staging a sporting or artistic event in return for advertising.

IN RETURN FOR ADVERTISING,

Sponsorship should not buy the sponsor the final say or grant them authority over the competition. For keeping integrity intact, sponsorship shouldn't buy the sponsor ANY say, much less the final say. All sponsorship should buy the sponsor is advertising.

Said "sponsor" needs to keep their hands out of organizing, setting rules, structuring the competition, being at the head of, etc.

Giving a "sponsor" the keys to the castle is not a wise decision. Too much conflict of interest there.

 

[K]

100%

I'm not against prize money but there currently seems to be some confusion in competitive airgunning about what sponsorship entails.....

spon·sor
/ˈspänsər/
noun
1.An individual or organization that pays some or all of the costs involved in staging a sporting or artistic event in return for advertising.

IN RETURN FOR ADVERTISING,

Sponsorship should not buy the sponsor the final say or grant them authority over the competition. For keeping integrity intact, sponsorship shouldn't buy the sponsor ANY say, much less the final say. All sponsorship should buy the sponsor is advertising.

Said "sponsor" needs to keep their hands out of organizing, setting rules, structuring the competition, being at the head of, etc.

Giving a "sponsor" the keys to the castle is not a wise decision. Too much conflict of interest there.

I'm curious how you see Crosman and Pyramyd Air's Pyramyd Cup fitting into your viewpoint.

 

[Airgunoregon]

I'm not saying we turn over the decision making in AAFTA... and I doubt very much that would ever happen with our all volunteer organization. AAFTA has and will continue to have a healthy and growing relationship with the vendors... in my opinion.

The two extreme events, Utah and AZ were started by the Vendors, organized by them and run by them... totally different.

That doesn't mean we can't have prize money in AAFTA and still control our own organization... again in my humble opinion.

Wayne

 

[dayjd]

I'm curious how you see Crosman and Pyramyd Air's Pyramyd Cup fitting into your viewpoint.

The Crosman and Pyramyd were great Grand Prix's. Both pulled in high numbers and at the Crosman event we were able to buy their products at the event at a great price. The PYA event was just as good from the course standpoint and the Top three in each class were awarded very nice prizes. (Typically Airguns to the Top Tiers)
I'm not sure they will return though. PYA is now supporting the clubs that request it with PYA gift certificates. The are raffled off so you don't need to shoot well to get one. Just have a horse shoe in your back pocket. Personally, I would rather attend their events even though it costs a lot more. I'm not sure what Crosman plan is but speaking with a former Crosman Director at the 3 lakes match I didn't leave with a positive feeling, but hopeful.

 

[K]

The Crosman and Pyramyd were great Grand Prix's. Both pulled in high numbers and at the Crosman event we were able to buy their products at the event at a great price. The PYA event was just as good from the course standpoint and the Top three in each class were awarded very nice prizes. (Typically Airguns to the Top Tiers)
I'm not sure they will return though. PYA is now supporting the clubs that request it with PYA gift certificates. The are raffled off so you don't need to shoot well to get one. Just have a horse shoe in your back pocket. Personally, I would rather attend their events even though it costs a lot more. I'm not sure what Crosman plan is but speaking with a former Crosman Director at the 3 lakes match I didn't leave with a positive feeling, but hopeful.

I should probably clarify. I was asking Franklink about his thoughts about those two competitions and wether or not they fit into his outlined framework. Both were quite successful and popular, but didn't exactly follow AAFTA rules.

 

[dayjd]

I should probably clarify. I was asking Franklink about his thoughts about those two competitions and wether or not they fit into his outlined framework. Both were quite successful and popular, but didn't exactly follow AAFTA rules.

If they didn't follow the AFFTA rule book it couldn't of been a Grand Prix. They did offer a Unlimted class once or twice but it wasn't a AFFTA official class.

 

[K]

If they didn't follow the AFFTA rule book it couldn't of been a Grand Prix. They did offer a Unlimted class once or twice but it wasn't a AFFTA official class.

You sure about that?

 

[ocedummy]

I love to shoot HFT and used to do it a lot and I miss it. Then I Got old and health reared its ugly head. I can still shoot sitting fine, hardly miss many that way, but with an old body, bad knees and a fake hip from when I fell down after Cancer/Chemo, those kneeing and standing lanes are killer. Last couple of matches I shot I would miss 2-4 points from sitting, but would lose 6 on kneeing and 4 on standing. Three targets per lane. In Florida there were two matches where the positional lanes could be shot sitting for 1/2 point per target, worked better for me and would help the beginners, but they stopped doing that, bummer. These scores would be just for club matches or maybe unlimited. It's not much fun getting beat by younger guys I used to beat. I think this is why a lot of old guys drop out. Plus where I live, the matches start at 8 am and I have a two hour 97 mile drive, don't mind the drive, but i hate getting up at 5 am to be non-competitive and get beat by people with better knees.
And no, I don't want cheese with my WHINE

 

[tjmac]

Every Crosman match I went to followed AAFTA rules. I really enjoyed those matches, but am not optimistic that it will return.

Tim

 

[dayjd]

I love to shoot HFT and used to do it a lot and I miss it. Then I Got old and health reared its ugly head. I can still shoot sitting fine, hardly miss many that way, but with an old body, bad knees and a fake hip from when I fell down after Cancer/Chemo, those kneeing and standing lanes are killer. Last couple of matches I shot I would miss 2-4 points from sitting, but would lose 6 on kneeing and 4 on standing. Three targets per lane. In Florida there were two matches where the positional lanes could be shot sitting for 1/2 point per target, worked better for me and would help the beginners, but they stopped doing that, bummer. These scores would be just for club matches or maybe unlimited. It's not much fun getting beat by younger guys I used to beat. I think this is why a lot of old guys drop out. Plus where I live, the matches start at 8 am and I have a two hour 97 mile drive, don't mind the drive, but i hate getting up at 5 am to be non-competitive and get beat by people with better knees.
And no, I don't want cheese with my WHINE

OCE, I have walked in your shoes and 11 years ago I had to make a decision to either think about a wheel chair or get knee replacements. I was 64 years old with bone on bone. I decided to go for double replacements a week apart. It was a hard operation and long recovery (11 months) For 10 years now i can walk without pain. Sleep without pain. Stand on hard surfaces for limited time without pain. I can't run or jump but I can stand for all my forced positions shots. My knees don't have the range of motion to bend for a kneeling shot. I usually average 50% on the forced position shots. Once in a while a little better and other times a little worse. I have had my share of Cancers, TSA, TAVR. and Roto cuff surgery. Not to mention good old Arthur ...... but no darn wheel chair! I can say I'm glad I had the knee surgery it really gave me my like back.
Bill Day

 

[pirellip]

Open Class is ALIVE in Canada - we just held our CDN Nationals, and had more than a few shooters in that class. Due to physical limitations in some shooters, we have the option of eliminating the forced Standing and Kneeling lanes.

 

[Kdog]

So this past weekend at the Burning River 120 GP in Ohio Open class was well represented. Out of 43 total competitors 8 shot open class PCP and also talked to a few Hunter guys that wanted to make the switch to open next year.