What is a "Cheap" gun - Cost of modifying an Avenger and a Modified Crosman 2240

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As others have stated, it depends on you and what you want out of your ownership experience. Some of us like the experience of modding our guns to make them competitive with the "big boys", but that is only if you never plan to sell it because you will never get the amount of money that you spent on the gun back. If you plan to sell your gun someday, by all means pick up a used big-name gun because as you stated, it will hold its value.
 
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SkeeterHawk said:
As others have stated, it depends on you and what you want out of your ownership experience. Some of us like the experience of modding our guns to make them competitive with the "big boys", but that is only if you never plan to sell it because you will never get the amount of money that you spent on the gun back. If you plan to sell your gun someday, by all means pick up a used big-name gun because as you stated, it will hold its value.
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SkeeterHawk said:
As others have stated, it depends on you and what you want out of your ownership experience. Some of us like the experience of modding our guns to make them competitive with the "big boys", but that is only if you never plan to sell it because you will never get the amount of money that you spent on the gun back. If you plan to sell your gun someday, by all means pick up a used big-name gun because as you stated, it will hold its value.
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That makes sense.. Thank you.. I don't plan to sell my old Hatsans.. They are relics now anyway.. I kept a log book on each one..

All 3 have under 800 shots thru the barrel.. So the fact that I would need to give them away for peanuts.. I kind of figured I would be beating a dead horse by throwing more money into them.. Considering the performance in modding them compared to the improvement I would achieve..

Now if they were Avengers I might be more tempted.. They all shot good out to about 60 yards.. I would like to have a 100 yard MOA piece.. A used Fx is on my bucket list..




I would love to
 
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Modding an unregulated gun to be as accurate and perform as well as a top of the line gun is a fools errand. It is expensive and even if it is successful, you still have an inexpensive lower tear gun. Further your gun or guns will not be your major expense. That spot is held by your air supply cost and it is unavoidable. There is no inexpensive solution to this challenge.
 
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I, applaud the OP! IMO, it is kinda like buying anything made in China. You pretty much have to go thru it and clean it up, removing burrs, polishing surfaces, fixing little inaccuracies from the manufacturing / engineering process. It is a Good learning experience, and pretty enjoyable to do. Don’t knock it until you’ve tried It! Just my .02
 
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I sure am glad there are all kinds of tastes on this forum. It would be boring if everyone purchased 3 or 4 brands of high-end guns or only modded one style of low-end gun .

Same goes for shooting styles, differenting competitions, etc.

Hobbies are often crazy, winding adventures that entertain us. My guess is some golf fanatic is out there building his own clubs and that in the end he spends more than if he had bought the top of the line set. There is probably some other golf fanatic who thinks he is crazy.
 
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d3vnull said:
in the end he spends more than if he had bought the top of the line set. There is probably some other golf fanatic who thinks he is crazy.
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I agree completely, but I know that Steve Jobs was called worse things at times in his career. This is where innovation comes from. If someone thinks that all golf club manufacturers have been wrong for centuries, and that changing the head slightly will yield a better result. You don't know until you go down some deep A$S rabbit hole to find out...and we all know that poor soul is probably wrong. I'm not saying that FX or Daystate type guns are the only ones that can possibly work well, but they both are sure spending a lot of resources to come up with the best (or most marketable) product in their respective niches of this industry. As an individual, it is hard to compete with that budget unless you are thinking completely out of the box, like Chris Turek did with the harmonic barrel tuner.

Modifying a cheaper gun is more of a challenge, IMHO. As stated, there may be burrs or something obstructing air-flow, and unless you really "get it" where that air is supposed to go at high velocity and when, you don't get as much out of the mods. What do you get from bolting a power plenum onto an FX? It is a straight forward affair. However, if you challenge that the FX barrel tensioning system is the best and you do a bunch of mods and testing to try to prove yourself right...and spend a bunch more money than you would have just buying the tensioning system and taking their word for it, you got a lot more knowledge from the experiments you've done. It doesn't matter if it is an expensive gun or a cheap one, all that matters is that you are getting what makes you happy out of this hobby. Tinkering makes me happy, so I have a heavily modified Avenger.
 
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OK.. I have been rethinking my position on maybe modding one of my old Hatsans.. The Galatian IV.. I have two tanks for it.. so I could experiment on one of them.

The possible change of heart comes in here.. I already own it.. It has little to no value on the market.. So after 8 years from purchase..and 7 years without removing it from its case.. I guess you could say at this point.. it is free.. So throwing a few hundred bucks at it could be reasonable.. But only if a solid improvement could be achieved..

So.. I have read about the valve hole plugging.. The Huma install.. Etc..

What do ya'll think about barrel replacement.. Do you think the barrel is the weak link in the chain.. If so..

I saw a classified.. where a guy sold a FX barrel.. converted for his Galatian.. I think it was he.. who shot a golf ball 150 yard challenge..

I am new here.. and realisticly to air gun mods.

Any of this make sense? Would it be worth the effort..

I don't really need the whole.. proud to convert the gun satisfaction..

I come up with weird contraptions from time to time to fill that void..

Thanks
 
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I have 5 PCPs, all cost under $500, including a 25 caliber Avenger. I've modded all 5 but most of my mods have been to get them to fit me (6'2" with long arms) and for accuracy. My Avenger it tuned to shoot FX 25.4s at about 930 fps. I was disappointed at the grouping at 100 yards the one time I shot it there but I need to shoot it more at 50 and 100 to decide if I want to turn it down. It will shoot 1/4 inch or better at 25 yards. I messed with it's trigger to get the pull weight down and to make it a single stage. I spent the most trying to make it reasonably quiet but in the end I used an inexpensive in the shroud moderator and some holes in the shroud to get it down to about 85 db. A Tanto was louder.

I like my P35s more and one reason is it is easy to quiet them. Less than $2 for some hair curlers and plastic felt and you can get into the low 80s. I polished the crowns on the 22 and 177 and the 22 is my most accurate gun. I've shot two 3 shot groups with it now at 25 yards that look exactly like a single pellet hole. These guns are also almost all metal, much less plastic in them than my Avenger. But still light at 5.2 lbs.

I'm too cheap to double the cost of my Avenger trying to make it a different gun. I don't have a problem with somebody else doing it, however. I just change them so they fit me and shoot well and call it good enough. I have no plans to sell my Avenger but it's too long to be my favorite air rifle. But the features it has at the price point it is at are unique. And it is accurate and powerful.
 
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SkeeterHawk said:
I agree completely, but I know that Steve Jobs was called worse things at times in his career. This is where innovation comes from. If someone thinks that all golf club manufacturers have been wrong for centuries, and that changing the head slightly will yield a better result. You don't know until you go down some deep A$S rabbit hole to find out...and we all know that poor soul is probably wrong. I'm not saying that FX or Daystate type guns are the only ones that can possibly work well, but they both are sure spending a lot of resources to come up with the best (or most marketable) product in their respective niches of this industry. As an individual, it is hard to compete with that budget unless you are thinking completely out of the box, like Chris Turek did with the harmonic barrel tuner.

Modifying a cheaper gun is more of a challenge, IMHO. As stated, there may be burrs or something obstructing air-flow, and unless you really "get it" where that air is supposed to go at high velocity and when, you don't get as much out of the mods. What do you get from bolting a power plenum onto an FX? It is a straight forward affair. However, if you challenge that the FX barrel tensioning system is the best and you do a bunch of mods and testing to try to prove yourself right...and spend a bunch more money than you would have just buying the tensioning system and taking their word for it, you got a lot more knowledge from the experiments you've done. It doesn't matter if it is an expensive gun or a cheap one, all that matters is that you are getting what makes you happy out of this hobby. Tinkering makes me happy, so I have a heavily modified Avenger.
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And then you can share your results with the avengers community
 
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oabdel01 said:
Please let us know how you do at RMAC.
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Benchrest didn't go too bad for me or my son (who used the Avenger too on the bench). My son (13) had a really hard time with the wind on the second day, so he over-corrected the scope and had a hard time getting it back. The only thing that happened that was on the Avenger was that my barrel band popped on the second day during the speed challenge. I won one round, and we switched ranges and my gun sat out in the direct sunlight for at least 45 minutes. The next shot I took was off by 6" at 25 yards, so it was WAAAY off and I had to hold off the best I could for the rest of the remainder of the challenge. The last thing that we will need to get sorted out by next year is that we will have to find a place to get sighted in between rounds in the evening. I had to run my gun sighted in at 100 yards for the PRC when I am used to it being at 50, so my hold-overs were way off.

I didn't do awesome, but I met a WHOLE LOT of really awesome people and my son and I learned a whole lot and had a lot of fun together. I would call the trip a success, nonetheless.

Thanks for asking!

Jonathan
 
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SkeeterHawk said:
From the post Doux Technologies Plenum Upgrade for Air Venturi Avenger, I was asked this question:



I can't speak to a comparable AEA gun to mine from looking at their product lines, I'll move to the low-mid-high point of this comment.

While I don't feel like I have done a whole lot to my gun, I have spent some money to get it to where it is. It looks a whole lot like an FX Crown at this point, which is $1800 on Utah Air right now. I'm not saying they are the same, but I am just giving a point of reference. Here is a picture of my Avenger today.

View attachment 207712

I'm going to round these off to the nearest $10 so that I can do this from my head and not pull receipts, and also I am not planning on including the DonnyFL, Accu-Tac, or the Element Optics in this as you can use whatever you want, but these are the "essentials" that are part of the gun.

  • $350 Basic Avenger 22cal with synthetic stock
  • $150 Doux Technologies bottle upgrade
  • $100 Plenum Upgrade with tool
  • $75 450CC Aluminum Bottle
  • $50 Custom barrel band from JB3DPD.com
  • $50 DonnyFL Barrel Adapter
  • $50 Carbon fiber tubes to stiffen barrel and O-Rings for Spacers
  • $60 Bottle clamp to Picatinny adapter
  • $10 Replacement 60Duro Rubber Pads for Bottle Clamps to get better grippage
  • $895 Total

Now that I have reduced my regulator pressure down to 2000psi (138bar), and my hammer spring down to two turns in, I would imagine that I will be getting over 100 shots on this thing at 40FPE before I need to refill. I can tweak my hammer spring from 819FPS to 905FPS on my current tune shooting 21.15grain pellets. I don't see what there is not to like about this. At $895, I am at just under 50% the cost of an FX Crown, and I would be REALLY SURPRISED if you can say that an FX Crown will perform twice as good as my Avenger as it is. I guess we will find out at RMAC because I am bringing this gun.

I have a Crosman 2240 sitting right beside my Avenger that easily has $500 in upgrades to it (Not counting the scope), and this is a $60 pistol! This said, I can shoot the UPC code off of a can at 75 yards consistently in 10+MPH cross winds...so it sure isn't performing like a pistol any more.

So what is a "Cheap" gun? What is a mid-range gun? We all know that a "high end" gun has an externally adjustable regulator and hammer spring. The Avenger checks those boxes, while starting life in the "cheap gun" category. Since FX recently started using two regulators, let's rule that out, as well as Daystate's electronic control. We all know that makes them "high end" in today's market, but what does "mid range" mean, and what does it take to push a "budget" gun up to those specifications when you have an externally adjustable regulator and hammer spring??

What are your thoughts? What does it take to transition a gun from "cheap" to "mid" to "high". I believe that the guy that took the EBR Big Bore was using a Benjamin Armada chassis with electronics integrated in, etc. He had a custom barrel, etc. Was that still a "Mid range" gun?
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Its all in what makes you happy. I would be willing to bet you had a bunch of fun planning out and building a custom gun the way YOU wanted it. You made all the choices. It seems to me you love tinkering and adding goodies and if thats what makes you happy then its the right thing to do. I am more into doing some tuning and getting the best out of an otherwise stock gun. If I had more disposable income I would add a few goodies like regulators and maybe CF air supplies. But considering I do most of my shooting at the house larger air supply would rarely be truly needed. Nobody can make the choice for ya, but if you enjoyed the journey and are happy with what you end up with then you did the right thing. Just don't expect to get your money back when it comes time to trade.
 
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Gatorproof said:
That makes sense.. Thank you.. I don't plan to sell my old Hatsans.. They are relics now anyway.. I kept a log book on each one..

All 3 have under 800 shots thru the barrel.. So the fact that I would need to give them away for peanuts.. I kind of figured I would be beating a dead horse by throwing more money into them.. Considering the performance in modding them compared to the improvement I would achieve..

Now if they were Avengers I might be more tempted.. They all shot good out to about 60 yards.. I would like to have a 100 yard MOA piece.. A used Fx is on my bucket list..




I would love to
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If a good used FX is what you want, then I doubt you will be happy with anything less. But with the development of slugs I think there is a decent chance one of your old guns or a new moderately priced gun will make MOA. I hope the prices will continue to get closer to similar weight pellets as time goes by. My best bet would be to try the FX slugs as from what I read here they seem to do well through pellet gun bbls. $15/box of 100 and some tuning and you might already have that MOA gun. Wouldn't that be a hoot. You won't know if you don't try. Im going to give JSB King Heavies a run when they come back in .25 but the FX slugs are so close in weight to pellets that I bet under fifty yards I might not even have to make adjustments to my holdover and have great advantage from fifty to one hundred should I start shooting that far. So far my longest tree rat is around 75 yards and that was a long shot for my area.
 
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For all of you saying: You wont get your money back from your mods. Thats with anything that's not factory and IT'S FUN to see what you can improve on. For me, The mods that i have done; Removed stock barrel band and replaced with Black Arts and near the muzzle is v2 lock down Bonacci,Trigger kit, Internal mods, drilled out barrel port and Transfer port 7/8(cleaned up the treads) Have a 16.5 cc plenum on order.Polished the barrel, 3D barrel extender and moderator thats works well. and i have painted it and i fill the stock with crack sealer. Scope is Hawke 3x9 50mm adjective lens. It's a part of me now so ta speak.lol, the number are without the new plenum. Stock 25 cal is 42 fpe. And i do hunt woodchucks,coyotes. I also have a aea 357 300 fpe.

25_avenger_modified_ (1) (1).jpg
 
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357cal said:
Have a 16.5 cc plenum on order
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Hey 357Cal,

Check out this thread on the plenum installation. Just a precaution if you don't know those set screws are there.

I gained at least 5FPE on the 22 by adding the plenum. It's probably closer to 10FPE, but I haven't tuned it all the way back up since installing it. Here is my post on the install. I'm shooting right at 40FPE right now shooting the H&N Barracudas. They were sailing about 927FPS before going to RMAC, and I tuned it down to 912 while I was there to help "try" to buck the wind.

I agree, the Avenger is a fun platform. I'm getting my money back just in the joy of shooting it...which is really what this is all about, right?
 
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Using this modded Avenger as the example, I think the best place for the entry level guns that have been modded to the level of just under top tier, would be to set aside to hand over to a family member someday who would like to get into this hobby or even better yet, the gun be the one used for the initial lesson in gun safety.

You’ll never get back the $$ in time and cash put into it if sold, but you’ll see the joy on the kid you hand it too, especially if you tell him it’s a “one of”
 
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oabdel01 said:
Does the plenum do anything for accuracy (precision) or does it just increase power?
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It definitely increases power when the stock plenum is small (as in the case of the Avenger). I have read that it will help the RSD of your shot string because the increased volume gives a more consistent amount of air to the valve and is supposed to help the regulator be more consistent too since it will be experiencing a smaller differential pressure due to not completely depleting the reserves in the plenum area. Personally, I didn't notice a remarkable difference in the shot-to-shot variance, but a noticeable increase in power.
oabdel01 said:
Also, is there a gunsmith that can do some of these internal mods listed in post #34?
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I do all my own mods, but that is a "labor of love". I wouldn't be comfortable working on someone else's gun. I haven't taken a drill to the valve block yet. Steve from AVS brakes an Avenger completely down on YouTube here. I imagine that you could find someone to do it for you in a new thread.🤞
 
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