JW. said:

I get it, but i'm not sure why... I've never heard of anyone referencing the outside of the group as the group size.

For field target Troyer rating the diameter of a pellet should be accounted for in the calculations but it is too complicated to have a different Troyer rating for the three calibers. This is the one use case where I see Caliber MOA being a thing (shooting through a small hole). But its fairly unique to field target.

"As such, my standard for edge to edge five round group size when testing pellets became 0.0324" plus caliber, or what I call Caliber MOA."

So really your "Caliber MOA" group size is 0.2094", it does not make a lot of sense to say "Caliber MOA" and call out a center to center dimension (which is a non-caliber MOA way of calculating the group size).

What are you using this calculation for?

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Center to Center group size is widest point Edge to Edge minus the outside diameter of the unshot projectile punching the hole.

The world record for a Center Fire 30 caliber five round group at 100 yards is 0.0077" Center to Center.

I keep hearing how accurate PCP rifles have become and I laugh because a 30 caliber PCP rifle is not capable of a five round group of 0.0077" Center to Center at 20 yards let alone at 100 yards.

My sub 12 Ft-lbs 0.177 caliber Thomas Precision Benchrest rifle routinely produces 5 round groups of < 0.2094" Indoors at 20 yards so to be fare to my 0.30 caliber M3, I am just scaling up the group size relative to the 0.177, which is the 20 yard MOA minus 0.177 and adding the difference to 0.30"

As for the AAFTA Troyer:

A. At 20 yards the smallest KZ diameter allowed is 0.5" having a Troyer of 40.0. This KZ is 1.50" times greater than my Caliber MOA Standard of 0.3324" EtoE for a 30 cal. .

B. At 32 yards the smallest KZ diameter allowed is 0.75" having a Troyer of 42.7. This KZ is 2.256 times greater than my Caliber MOA Standard of 0.3324" EtoE for a 30 cal.

C. At best the Troyer regulated KZ sizes are a measure of accuracy but in no way are a measure of precision.

D. I call it Caliber MOA and define it as 0.0324" + projectile caliber because it is my standard.

Well....let me add a question on complexity.

NOT including the electronics, is the Delta Wolf significantly simpler for users to maintain (i.e. o-rings) than the K1? Is there noticeably fewer parts?

Thanks!

L.Leon said:

@Franklink, that was some impressive shooting on those ground squirrels… What a target rich environment! And you taking full advantage of it… Kudos to you on the sweet kills at varying and impressively far distances… Rifle, caliber and projectiles?…

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Thanks. It was a BRK Ghost in .20 with the NSA .20/18.9gr slugs.

Ammo is whatever your gun prefers. I hunt exclusively with simple domed pellets, I do not think "hunting" pellets are necessary or even helpful. But if your gun likes them and they penetrate far enough I would use them.

Unless you want to be able to kill larger animals than iguanas I would get the 22. Less air, usually cheaper ammo, less noise. I see people taking them with Prods, that is less than 20 fpe. Also little Brococks with short barrels. Range is apparently not long. I'm not saying that low powered 22s are ideal but if you shoot a lot around people they might be. In wide open spaces I would probably use 30 fpe or so in a 22.

Which pellet depends on what your gun likes. I was pleasantly surprised to learn my Bullshark in 22 likes Crosmans. It also likes H&N 18 and 21 grain and several weights of JSBs, however. It is not very picky. But other guns I own seem to only really like a single pellet. Most of my guns seem to prefer H&N or JSB (with more liking H&N) but I don't test other brands a lot. If you can find a sampler you can save some money but I don't think there is a good way to find out what shoots best in a gun than to try a bunch of pellets.

jkingrph said:

I have had my first FWB 124d a little over 50 years now, and picked up a second late last year. I was always amazed at the ease of cocking, accuracy and power. It was not long after I got that 124 from ARH in W. Va, that I spotted a Williams receiver sight at Beemans and put one of those on. I was in the USAF at the time in base housing. so I would shoot in one bedroom down the hall into another bedroom. I did not have a proper rest, so would set a dining room chair in the bedroom, sit on the floor and use the chair as a rest. I was probably shooting at about 15-18 yards max. but little one hole groups were common. I have increased my collection or accumulatin of air rifles a lot in the ensuing years, but those remain among my favorites.
I remember the hype about the power, so tested it I think with silver jet pellets against a 1" (3/4") white pine board, and at about six inches from the muzzle it would completely penetrate the board.

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Thank you for your service , and post
USAF veteran OldVet.

no, this shall not make flyers,
but instead of a pin probe I would switch to pellet probe, much better initial alignment.

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Look into Silent Thunder Ordnance Falx . An excellet moderator at 1/3 the cost of the one's mentioned

I have three 25s but only two are working at the moment. I hope to get some time to address the third soon. My first was an Avenger. I still have it and shoot it occasionally but after getting a P35 in 25 I hardly shoot the Avenger. It is so LONG. I discovered I really prefer bullpups. The first pellet I found that my P35 in 25 shot well was the H&N FTT which only weighs 20 grains. I decreased the regulator to keep them under 900 fps and shot 18 squirrels with it that first year of use. FPE was only about 32 but squirrels did not seem to care. The only ones that ran at all took a chest shot that ended up behind a rear leg. Probably only got one lung. And they did not go far. They and one shoulder to shoulder shot were the only ones where the pellet did not exit. All nice clean kills. But then I got my P35-22 and shot 10 with it tuned to about 32 fpe. Not one of them ran at all. All DRT. There were no lengthwise shots but with 30 fpe or so I am quite confident in a 22. The P35-25 is currently tuned to about 47 fpe for bigger pests like armadillos and small raccoons. I took one with a head shot and it was DRT. The 25 I am working on is a P35X I am hoping to get mid 50s from. Have to get it working first.

25 caliber pellets tend to cost more but it is not going to put me in the poor house to shoot mine. They also use up air quicker and tend to be noisier. I have the P35X barrel on the P35 right now and it is quite accurate. I need to give it some more time and see if I can't wring a 200 out of it. But I also have a bullshark in 22 that seems to have potential, even with cheap old Crosman pellets. I don't see anything wrong with 25s but it's a little cheaper and easier to feed 22s and 177s. Got some pellets to try in my one 177 too.

For small game I really do not think 25s are necessary or even add much. They certainly have worked well for me but so has the one higher powered 22 I've tried. I have two other higher powered 22s I need to give a chance on squirrels too. It's nice to have plenty of choices. I see 25s as most useful for low end bigger game up to coyote. But a 25 tuned down into the 30s is a sweet small game gun too, it might be a tad overkill but it works. If you are in wide open spaces even a much higher tuned 25 is going to be very effective.

NotCutleryLover said:

I suspect the general underperformance of .25 in the competitive scene may have something to do with it. Most of the ammo developments seem to be focused on .30 as well, with some trickle down to .25 shortly after. If there were energy limitations in 100 yard benchrest, .25 may make a comeback.

I still enjoy my .25s

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This fellow AGN member would beg to difer and he did beat out all the .30s with his .25 and his ballistic reasoning is sound..

From aliexpress, I ordered years ago for $ peanuts. I guess I am set for life. (fill probes not in this picture but could not find quickly)

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Very Nice! Looks like a great combination for your Mora

Very impressive groups and, yes, I think you hit PCP nirvana!

Beech'n

@Franklink, that was some impressive shooting on those ground squirrels… What a target rich environment! And you taking full advantage of it… Kudos to you on the sweet kills at varying and impressively far distances… Rifle, caliber and projectiles?…

Well, I think after people try the power of 25 they start dreaming about 357 4045 and even larger calibers or they get shot by the price of 25 caliber

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Yes, I had several rifles. They do that, but I do believe it or not. I put a couple of drops off silicone oil and the adapter, then hooked the adapter to the tank or compressor next I cut the rifle and leave the lever open with the safety apply without closing the lever. I air the rifle up to at least 200 bar then I check it if it doesn’t get fixed the first time I close the lever shoot it once or twice while it still has a little bit of air in it then repeat same thing call it and leave back here to 150 bar and try again sometimes it’s taking me as many as three times. Are you trying to edit with the compressor or with a tank? Sometimes it works faster with the tank as you can force air a little faster, which helps the puppet vale clothes better

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Wow! What an amazing rig to be a caretaker of… you must have wonderful attributes to be chosen for such a burden… You are surely a blessed, lucky fellow.

Stopped by my fav pawn shop on the way home, and jumped down the Layaway Rabbit hole head first for a nice looking Diana 350 Magnum in .177 with a brown woodgrain plastic stock market RWS . I'll be able to climb out of this hole on Oct 15. Lol
Oh yeah I wanted to make sure it would shoot , and that I could cock a Magnum , so I took it outside , and dry fired it once. I know your not supposed too , but it had to be tested , and I had not pellets. Cocked very smooth , and fired very powerful. So I did shoot a springer today sort of. Lol

My SPA probes didn't work well. I messed around with them trying various things to try and get them to work without leaking. Then I tried an Aliexpress probe. About $5 and works perfectly. So I bought several more. I don't know if they have them for all guns but if they have one that seems like the dimensions are right, for their prices I think it's worth a try.

I also had to go Dr.'s today on way back stopped by my fav pawn shop to look at a Texan I was eyeballing , but it was gone. Then I found a very nice
Diana 350 Magnum with a plastic woodgrain stock , and a RWS insignia on the side in .177 . Perfect bore , and crown , so I jumped down the layaway Rabbit hole , and won't be able to climb out untill October.Lol.