Have yous seen Matt Dubber's video on the Huben K1 semi-auto? I thought the most interesting part was not about the rifle, but what he said about the slugs- more energy on target than .25 pellets, more mass for better wind resistance, longer range capabilities due to much better slug BCs. What do yous think, is this where we're headed?
Will .22 slugs become the new .25?
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Heck yeah pellets are the worst ammo ever made. We shoot grand or 2 grand guns and shoot the least aerodynamic projectile possible. Its like buying the most expensive lap top just to play solitary on. Ive been waiting for this to happen.
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I'm not sure about .22s completely replacing the .25, but I do think slugs are going to take over. There are only a couple of reasons to keep using diablo pellets instead slugs. First, if you compete then slugs may not be allowed at the places you shoot (e.g., every event at extreme benchrest does not allow slugs except the big bore section). Second, some guns just don't work very well with slugs. FX is a good example of a company that has had amazing results with diablo pellets but not so much with slugs (so far). The only other things I can think of are how much power is needed to accurately shoot slugs vs. diablos (shot count may also affect whether or not to use them).
This is looking like the beginning of a focus on external instead of internal ballistics for airguns.
This is looking like the beginning of a focus on external instead of internal ballistics for airguns.
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Good question. Diabolo style pellets have their limitations as everyone soon realizes.....speed vs. stability and accuracy. Slugs are more stable at higher speeds and power settings. I realized this long ago and started using slugs in my Airforce Condor with great success. Without sacrificing accuracy, I doubled the weight of my projectile and also increased the velocity 200 FPS. The increased knockdown power made it unnecessary to go to a higher caliber (buy a new gun). I believe this realization is the main drive behind FX's Twist X barrel system.....to make easier and less costly the conversion over to slugs for longer range accuracy and impact energy without having to buy a different gun. Long range performance is where Diabolo style pellets find their greatest weakness. Changing over from a .22 cal Diabolo style pellet to a .22 cal. slug of the same or similar weight enables the shooter to increase the velocity while maintaining or improving accuracy at longer range, and makes the need to go to a higher caliber (buy a new gun) a whole lot less necessary.
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yeah BeemanR7 I think you're right, I bet FX is hard at work making barrel liners with twist rates for slugs as we speak. Maybe the metal liner needs to be harder too, like a barrel on a .22LR, & perhaps they have to bring back rifling? I wouldn't be surprised if FX starts designing their own ammo & starts selling their own slugs next year.
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I do understand the mentality of pushing the limits of distance with an airgun and admire the long distance accuracy the slug shooters are achieving. I haven't had any experience shooting slugs myself, except in powder burners.
I do a fair amount of pest shooting in areas that have homes or people working the fields nearby. While I always make sure I have a good backstop, it's a comfort to me the way a diabolo pellet loses energy relatively quickly, especially in the case of a ricochet. So in my case, slugs will not replace diabolo pellets for what I do.
I do a fair amount of pest shooting in areas that have homes or people working the fields nearby. While I always make sure I have a good backstop, it's a comfort to me the way a diabolo pellet loses energy relatively quickly, especially in the case of a ricochet. So in my case, slugs will not replace diabolo pellets for what I do.
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JohnL57,
You make an excellent point. Diabolo style pellets won't lose their place. I use slugs in my Condor, but I'll continue to use pellets in all my other guns for the very reason that you stated. I'm sure that's why FX sends out new Wildcat MKII guns with the original Smooth Twist barrels (for pellets) and then offers Twist X liners for those who wish to experiment with slugs.
You make an excellent point. Diabolo style pellets won't lose their place. I use slugs in my Condor, but I'll continue to use pellets in all my other guns for the very reason that you stated. I'm sure that's why FX sends out new Wildcat MKII guns with the original Smooth Twist barrels (for pellets) and then offers Twist X liners for those who wish to experiment with slugs.
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It certainly is fascinating, although I do worry. Right now we are enjoying this sport very liberally ( "Dust Collectors", backyard shooting, etc) without much interference from Uncle Sam. Keep pushing the envelope a tad too much, and that may change quickly. Will regulations hit only those guns that shoot slugs? or will they clump all airguns together, or perhaps only PCPs? Just some food for thought, I could be wrong.
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That kinda works when you do your own mods at home. When manufacturers start pumping them out, and advertising to the masses, the radar starts bleeping.
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I believe that a .22 slug will take the place of a .30 pellet. The only thing that will be missed is the wound channel created by that of a .30.
However, I don't believe that will eliminate my usage of pellets. Pellets are fun to plink with. Relatively low in cost compared to slugs. Safer in the confinements of a backyard or such. Pellets definitely have their place. However, for certain hunting situations or long range shooting, the slug will be fantastic.
From the results I've seen from guns like the Huben shooting slugs, why would you need a .25 or .30? Unless the bc was vastly improved, no real necessity.
However, I don't believe that will eliminate my usage of pellets. Pellets are fun to plink with. Relatively low in cost compared to slugs. Safer in the confinements of a backyard or such. Pellets definitely have their place. However, for certain hunting situations or long range shooting, the slug will be fantastic.
From the results I've seen from guns like the Huben shooting slugs, why would you need a .25 or .30? Unless the bc was vastly improved, no real necessity.
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Cast and swaged bullets have been long used in powder burners. The biggest draw back is that the twist rates are usually for high speed jacketed bullets 2800 or so fps and cast bullets can't be pushed that fast without leading issues.
Airguns that are built with the lower speeds will most likely be amazing with cast or swaged bullets.
There are a couple forums to check out for cast bullets. http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum and http://castboolits.gunloads.com/cmps_index.php . Check them out if you are interested in decades worth of bullet making knowledge.
Airguns that are built with the lower speeds will most likely be amazing with cast or swaged bullets.
There are a couple forums to check out for cast bullets. http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum and http://castboolits.gunloads.com/cmps_index.php . Check them out if you are interested in decades worth of bullet making knowledge.
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I think bullets bring a completely new technology for airguns. Powder burners can shoot close to or over 3000 fps, so must be jacketed bullets. Airguns shoot typically well under 1000 fps, so leading isn't nearly the issue.
Think of this though. If an air rifle had a properly designed barrel to shoot a jacketed bullet, and the air rifle could be set to drive the bullet out of the barrel well over 1200 fps (well over the sound barrier), a conical bullet won't have the same instability problems going through the sound barrier that a Diabolo pellet has. It just might mean that "Pellet Guns" can increase power and work much more like powder burners, albeit fewer shots per fill. Always a trade-off.
Even the good old diabolo pellet is getting a makeover though. I bought a tin of the JSB 34 grain in .22. Haven't had time to tune the gun up enough to shoot them yet, but will later this spring, after the snow melts off and warmer temps come back. the 34 grain might be a starting point, but real bullets will be a whole new world.
Think of this though. If an air rifle had a properly designed barrel to shoot a jacketed bullet, and the air rifle could be set to drive the bullet out of the barrel well over 1200 fps (well over the sound barrier), a conical bullet won't have the same instability problems going through the sound barrier that a Diabolo pellet has. It just might mean that "Pellet Guns" can increase power and work much more like powder burners, albeit fewer shots per fill. Always a trade-off.
Even the good old diabolo pellet is getting a makeover though. I bought a tin of the JSB 34 grain in .22. Haven't had time to tune the gun up enough to shoot them yet, but will later this spring, after the snow melts off and warmer temps come back. the 34 grain might be a starting point, but real bullets will be a whole new world.
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Any projectile going supersonic will get loud. Pellets or bullets. To stay quiet with a bullet, just stay sub-sonic. Point was that bullets don't destabilize as readily as pellets as they cross the sound barrier. It gives another ability, though we don't necessarily have to use it.
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Not to mention... the trajectory of a 28gr slug going 970 FPS is insane. You can reach out and touch with that round.
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I chose slugs for my .25 cal Condor so that I could increase my velocity and range and knockdown power without sacrificing accuracy. I'm shooting 37 grain Rat Sniper Hollow Points at 1050 FPS (90.6 FPE) and still have reserve to go faster if the need arises. I have accuracy and consistency and knockdown power and a flat trajectory to boot. It saved me from having to upgrade to .30 caliber. I'm doing with .25 cal slugs what would be difficult to achieve with .30 cal pellets. At all cost I want to resist the temptation to go to .30 cal. I nearly gave in to that costly temptation before I finally realized what my Condor could do with .25 cal slugs. I'm taking down coyotes between 50 and 75 yards without breaking the sound barrier. I don't see the need to go to .30, unless to extend my range. Even then I'd have to use slugs.
I believe this is exactly why FX is offering changeable barrel liners with varying twist rates to give their customers the benefits and advantages of slugs. Previously they've optimized their guns for the use of JSB pellets. Now FX can make barrel liners best suited, not only for slugs, but for other pellet manufacturers. Also, to remain competitive, JSB is going to have to expand their line of products to include slugs.
The growth potential for the airgun industry and the airgun community appears to be on the verge of an explosion. If there is a downside to any of this, it is the potential to awaken the gun-hating giant.
I believe this is exactly why FX is offering changeable barrel liners with varying twist rates to give their customers the benefits and advantages of slugs. Previously they've optimized their guns for the use of JSB pellets. Now FX can make barrel liners best suited, not only for slugs, but for other pellet manufacturers. Also, to remain competitive, JSB is going to have to expand their line of products to include slugs.
The growth potential for the airgun industry and the airgun community appears to be on the verge of an explosion. If there is a downside to any of this, it is the potential to awaken the gun-hating giant.
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