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When testing different pellets...

.. is it "better" to shoot at the same spot over and over again, or does it make more "sense" to try and keep the group as tight as possible?! I was always under the impression that whenever people test how "accurate" a rifle is, that they shoot at the same spot?!

I personally believe it would be best to securely tie a rifle down (PCP only) and then shoot at little cross'. Each pellet gets its own cross. That way you can always see where exactly the pellet hit and you also take out the equation of moving the rifle while shooting.

What say you?!

Thanks,

Kmd

 
If you find the rifle + rest + bag natural POA, no need to tie it down. 

Basically what you're looking for is the rifle to not move your crosshairs off you POA after/during the shot. Aim, shot, check the crosshairs. If they moved off your POA you're in tension someplace or not level someplace. Jiggle, move, squeeze, adjust, etc till you pre and post shot POA is the same, regardless if the rifle slides back with recoil or not.

Honestly its the biggest mistake I make, not taking the time to setup my rest, rifle and rear bag so rather the rifle slides back 2" with recoil on each shot or only moves a 1/2" after 50 shots, the POA stays the same. It can make a HUGE difference in the POI. 
 
"Percula"If you find the rifle + rest + bag natural POA, no need to tie it down. 

Basically what you're looking for is the rifle to not move your crosshairs off you POA after/during the shot. Aim, shot, check the crosshairs. If they moved off your POA you're in tension someplace or not level someplace. Jiggle, move, squeeze, adjust, etc till you pre and post shot POA is the same, regardless if the rifle slides back with recoil or not.

Honestly its the biggest mistake I make, not taking the time to setup my rest, rifle and rear bag so rather the rifle slides back 2" with recoil on each shot or only moves a 1/2" after 50 shots, the POA stays the same. It can make a HUGE difference in the POI.
Makes sense...

The one reason I would like to tie a rifle down, is when I work on my turrets. normally when I turn them, the crosshairs move of my POA. That said. Is it bad for a PCP gun to be strapped down?
 
"kmd1984"
"Percula"If you find the rifle + rest + bag natural POA, no need to tie it down. 

Basically what you're looking for is the rifle to not move your crosshairs off you POA after/during the shot. Aim, shot, check the crosshairs. If they moved off your POA you're in tension someplace or not level someplace. Jiggle, move, squeeze, adjust, etc till you pre and post shot POA is the same, regardless if the rifle slides back with recoil or not.

Honestly its the biggest mistake I make, not taking the time to setup my rest, rifle and rear bag so rather the rifle slides back 2" with recoil on each shot or only moves a 1/2" after 50 shots, the POA stays the same. It can make a HUGE difference in the POI.
Makes sense...

The one reason I would like to tie a rifle down, is when I work on my turrets. normally when I turn them, the crosshairs move of my POA. That said. Is it bad for a PCP gun to be strapped down?
Why are you messing with your turrets during a accuracy test? Thats the same as you moving the gun during the test to change the POA....
  • Get your rifle in its natural POA, test it with a few shots.
  • Acquire your POA on a new target, fire five shots without touching anything (it's okay to slide a rifle that recoils a lot back into position as long as it doesn't change the POA)
  • Make any adjustments you need to
  • Acquire new POA/target, repeat second step
If I'm testing pellets step #3 is change pellets...

Holding the gun so that it can't move in its natural way can/will effect harmonics which will effect POI.
 
I think you may be overthinking this. The way I'm reading your question is that it has more to do with testing the precision of the barrel but not necessarily the accuracy of the air rifle. For precision, I think you'd need to install the barrel on a special machine that consistently reproduces each shot like what I've seen on some of the FX factory tour videos.

Keeping the same POA each shot helps with rifle zero, but I can't say that it helps with each shot. The reason is that there are too many variables each time that may affect where the pellet impacts which is why you're looking at an average from a group.

Items that affect each shot include, but are not limited to, the amount of air used for that shot, weight of that individual pellet, pellet head size, pellet defects, how the pellet is loaded (individually or magazine), and final position of the pellet once it has been seated. Now add in the potential issues with your optics and how they are mounted let alone what happens inside the optic when making windage and elevation changes and the issues with second focal plane optics versus first focal plan optics when adjusting magnification. Also add in environmental conditions such as humidity, wind, temperature and then human error with not being able to replicate each shot 100% with trigger squeeze and other forces acting on the air rifle as a whole and you can see some of the potential problems. 

In other words, one or more of the above variables may change with each shot, every 5 shots or something else and cause a different result. If you're looking at your rifles accuracy, it may be better to look at what you plan to use it for and the distances you plan to shoot and then decide what results you'll be happy with. For instance, if you're looking at a wildlife control/hunting air rifle do you need 1" accuracy at 40 yards or 1" accuracy at 100 yards? Using myself as the example, I like to strive for chipmunk head shots out to 100 yards accuracy with the majority being in the 30 - 80 yards. This means I need a setup where I can consistently duplicate impacts within 1/2" one way or the other away from the POA thus giving me a 1" accuracy criteria at 100 yards. (My terminology may be confusing as I'm defining 1" by saying that a shot may be 1/2" high to a 1/2" low from the POA for a total acceptable distance of 1" from the top to bottom. So while some may view this as 1/2" accuracy based on where the pellet impacts from POA, I don't.) For air rifles that cannot do this, I know not to use them for 1" 100 yard shots and instead find out what the longest acceptable range is then limit their use to that or designate a different accuracy level such as 3" at 100 yard. This works good for me with wildlife control needs but if I was shooting bench rest at 100 yards I don't think 1" or larger accuracy would be acceptable. For this, I may require impacts within 1/4" of the POA thus giving me a 1/2" at 100 yard accuracy.

For both of these uses I want to shoot at the same POA for several shots until I'm satisfied with the zero; however, once I have my zero for practice I want to pick a unique spot for each shot as that is what I'm going to be doing during actual use. This way I can see individual shot discrepancies and try to figure out what went wrong (pulled shot, wind, low power, bad feed from magazine, etc.). You can't do this when you shoot a 1/2" hole at 50 yards and keep putting pellets into it as you don't know what that individual pellet did and if a tread is developing that you don't notice until you actually need the accuracy you though you had.
 
"Percula"
"kmd1984"
"Percula"If you find the rifle + rest + bag natural POA, no need to tie it down. 

Basically what you're looking for is the rifle to not move your crosshairs off you POA after/during the shot. Aim, shot, check the crosshairs. If they moved off your POA you're in tension someplace or not level someplace. Jiggle, move, squeeze, adjust, etc till you pre and post shot POA is the same, regardless if the rifle slides back with recoil or not.

Honestly its the biggest mistake I make, not taking the time to setup my rest, rifle and rear bag so rather the rifle slides back 2" with recoil on each shot or only moves a 1/2" after 50 shots, the POA stays the same. It can make a HUGE difference in the POI.
Makes sense...

The one reason I would like to tie a rifle down, is when I work on my turrets. normally when I turn them, the crosshairs move of my POA. That said. Is it bad for a PCP gun to be strapped down?
Why are you messing with your turrets during a accuracy test? Thats the same as you moving the gun during the test to change the POA....
  • Get your rifle in its natural POA, test it with a few shots.
  • Acquire your POA on a new target, fire five shots without touching anything (it's okay to slide a rifle that recoils a lot back into position as long as it doesn't change the POA)
  • Make any adjustments you need to
  • Acquire new POA/target, repeat second step
If I'm testing pellets step #3 is change pellets...

Holding the gun so that it can't move in its natural way can/will effect harmonics which will effect POI.
Sorry for the late reply...

Why am I messing with the turrets during accuracy tests? Good question, ha ha. I actually forgot why I was doing that, but I believe it had something to do with my MTC Viper Pro. Since you can make a range tape for the turret, it seemed "normal" to me, to shoot at different distances and adjust the turret without moving the gun. Does that makes sense?

Thanks for the tips.

"Holding the gun so that it can't move in its natural way can/will effect harmonics which will effect POI." 

This is what I really wanted to know! Is it better to let the gun "do its thing", or clamp it down, and stop it from "doing its thing"... I hear what you are saying...

Thanks,

Kmd
 
"zebra"It depends if you are testing the consistency of the gun or your own skill imo.

if you are at the range and you clamp your rifle in place and manage to shoot a tight group, that tells you your gun is working well. It doesn't necessarily mean you have the skill to hit any target at the same distance, just that the rifle is capable if you do your part. 

I believe you and WTC_Editor are saying the same thing, and you both nailed it! I guess I was trying to figure out how accurate the rifle can be, before trying to find out how good I can shoot. : ). Like you guys said, two totally different things. 

WTC, I guess I am overthinking the whole thing to much.

thanks for the input!

Kmd
 
"WCT_Editor"I think you may be overthinking this. The way I'm reading your question is that it has more to do with testing the precision of the barrel but not necessarily the accuracy of the air rifle. For precision, I think you'd need to install the barrel on a special machine that consistently reproduces each shot like what I've seen on some of the FX factory tour videos.

Keeping the same POA each shot helps with rifle zero, but I can't say that it helps with each shot. The reason is that there are too many variables each time that may affect where the pellet impacts which is why you're looking at an average from a group.

Items that affect each shot include, but are not limited to, the amount of air used for that shot, weight of that individual pellet, pellet head size, pellet defects, how the pellet is loaded (individually or magazine), and final position of the pellet once it has been seated. Now add in the potential issues with your optics and how they are mounted let alone what happens inside the optic when making windage and elevation changes and the issues with second focal plane optics versus first focal plan optics when adjusting magnification. Also add in environmental conditions such as humidity, wind, temperature and then human error with not being able to replicate each shot 100% with trigger squeeze and other forces acting on the air rifle as a whole and you can see some of the potential problems. 

In other words, one or more of the above variables may change with each shot, every 5 shots or something else and cause a different result. If you're looking at your rifles accuracy, it may be better to look at what you plan to use it for and the distances you plan to shoot and then decide what results you'll be happy with. For instance, if you're looking at a wildlife control/hunting air rifle do you need 1" accuracy at 40 yards or 1" accuracy at 100 yards? Using myself as the example, I like to strive for chipmunk head shots out to 100 yards accuracy with the majority being in the 30 - 80 yards. This means I need a setup where I can consistently duplicate impacts within 1/2" one way or the other away from the POA thus giving me a 1" accuracy criteria at 100 yards. (My terminology may be confusing as I'm defining 1" by saying that a shot may be 1/2" high to a 1/2" low from the POA for a total acceptable distance of 1" from the top to bottom. So while some may view this as 1/2" accuracy based on where the pellet impacts from POA, I don't.) For air rifles that cannot do this, I know not to use them for 1" 100 yard shots and instead find out what the longest acceptable range is then limit their use to that or designate a different accuracy level such as 3" at 100 yard. This works good for me with wildlife control needs but if I was shooting bench rest at 100 yards I don't think 1" or larger accuracy would be acceptable. For this, I may require impacts within 1/4" of the POA thus giving me a 1/2" at 100 yard accuracy.

For both of these uses I want to shoot at the same POA for several shots until I'm satisfied with the zero; however, once I have my zero for practice I want to pick a unique spot for each shot as that is what I'm going to be doing during actual use. This way I can see individual shot discrepancies and try to figure out what went wrong (pulled shot, wind, low power, bad feed from magazine, etc.). You can't do this when you shoot a 1/2" hole at 50 yards and keep putting pellets into it as you don't know what that individual pellet did and if a tread is developing that you don't notice until you actually need the accuracy you though you had.
Thanks for your lengthy input btw... : ) 
 
Unless you have a very good reference points or very good aiming skills, to keep shooting into the same hole can lead to the overall group size getting larger than the guns actual accuracy potential. Say I put a dot onto a piece of paper and actually shoot it. I now have one larger hole. I aim at the center of that hole and shot again. My group size is going to get larger unless I exactly hit the center of my original dot with the first pellet. I take a third shot at the center of my new hole which may be a bit off from the original dot and my first and second shot so the group grows again.

One technique is to put the scopes cross hairs on cross hairs printed on the target that coincide with the center of the target and don't pay attention to the circle in the center of the target or where the pellets are hitting. All my targets are like this.

Others will move their scope 10 clicks right/left or up/down then aim at the center point. The pellets will not hit the center of the target, but you will have a very good chance at your best groupsize.