This may be a bit of a jumbled cut and paste. But it is just a little of what I did years ago shooting into water and shooting re-cycled pellets that had been shot into water (The Great Australian White Water Trough) which opened many eyes to the fact that a 27 fpe AR could shoot horizontally through 5 feet of water with Kodiak/Baracuda and JSB 15.9 gr Exacts.
Please enjoy the read and think of the consequences. << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index Water penetration .... testing ...August 9 2011 at 7:50 PM
Yrrah (Login Yrrah)
YFEvery so often folk want to catch shot pellets to examine the rifling marks, shot shape etc. Raw teased/ carded sheep's fleece or pillow stuffing is best for most pellet types.
Back in 2003 I did a lot of tests catching pellets in water; determining penetration in water; re-shooting pellets already shot into water (surprising); shooting groups into underwater targets and much else.
This was a 2006 abbreviated summary of some of the 2003 experiments: Note the relative damage to non-expanding versus expanding and wadcutter pellets. ... Numerous pics of pellets, groups etc.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1144063591/1144107567
Styrene water troughs used in my experiments. This is a single but three need to be glued together end to end with windows cut through the glued walls to make a 5 ft trough for highest BC pellets like Kodiaks and JSBs, CPs etc. The pellet entry hole is sealed by pinning cling wrap squares to the inside of the shooting window. You will get drenched with water if you do not shoot from at least 10 ft back from the hole!!!
[/IMG]
Note that you need a 5 ft water trough to completely expend the momentum of .22 JSBs, CPs and a little more for Kodiaks shot at around 27 fps. ... However, teased out raw wool fleece or pillow stuffing will collect your pellets pretty much undamaged at say 30 yards from your rifle. Recycled pellet groups following water tests in 2003. If you missed it then take a look .April 3 2006 at 7:26 AM
Yrrah (Login Yrrah)
YFI was asked about recycled pellets and old tests. Here is a brief summary of what was done back in 2003. JSB Exacts, CPs and Kodiaks swam the swim virtually unscathed. Kodiaks did just over 5 feet, Exacts did average 59 inches from memory and CPs were in the upper 40s inches. However the extreme expansion of wadcutters and CM hollow points cut their water flight to low travel. ( Definitely NOT candidates for recycling from the TGAWWT ). This all reflected their in-air BC and led to Steve NC and I establishing a BC for water!!! Not everyone thought that had much relevance, but later tests I did on shot-through birds, with pellet velocities measured pre and post bird, confirmed the BC relationships between these pellets and the reasons why round heads are great for penetration and wadcutters and hollow points are good for splat ...... Later JSB Predators proved to be the better splatters than CMs, at least in birds with both more energy and more momentum dumped in the bird....... I digress.
What follows is a heavily edited synopsis but you will get the idea that SOME pellets can be shot and retrieved in excellent condition for examination and even shot again with surprising results.
Raw sheep's wool fleece has replaced TGAWWT for trapping pellets undamaged and will do a much better job on the expanding varieties.
Below: Group ctc = 0.35 inches made underwater after 21 inches of underwater "flight" in The Great Australian White Water Trough. ( A world's record I would think :O))
..."..Given their slightly bigger heads and diminished bore size skirts following the first shooting they made a pretty fair effort the second time around.
Comments?
An in-deeper-than-ever, Yrrah."
And
..."..here is the group promised. Five JSBs shot the second time without any flaring of the skirts or other treatment whatsoever. These were the pellets that had made the 0.35 inch group in the target at the 21 inch mark of their 43.25 inch underwater travel ( Edit: see above group ). Shot both times from the one and only RWS Excalibre at near 28 fpe and this time at 27.34 yards (25 metres) in air of course...."
Here is another 25 metre group shot with JSB Exact pellets recycled from The Great Australian White Water Trough.
The following was a similar experiment done with 14.3 gr Crosman Premier .22 pellets that had also been shot through over 43 inches of water, recovered and shot at 25 metres into the upper left hand group. The lower right group was shot with normal CPs.
To answer another implied question from CG ...... Below is a pellet with a fingers squashed skirt:
And here is the same pellet retrieved after being shot into he Great Aussie White Water Trough:
Yrrah
(Login Yrrah)
YFAll of thatApril 3 2006, 5:33 PM was done back three years ago in '03. The squished skirt thing was done after I had established that five such pellets would shoot as accurately at 25 and 50 metres as pellets directly out of the tin. The water catch test showed that they blew out to apparently the same shape.
The rifle as the same .22 RWS Excalibre ( Tarantula / FX 2000 ) that virtually all my shooting has been done with over the last 4 years..... With the exception of when I use the old Sheridans or Benjamins, I am a one gun man.
At the time it was shooting at 27 / 28 fpe. The tests involved a lot of water, a lot of time and the goodwill of my patient wife. TGAWWT involved ultimately three styrene boxes glued together with large holes cut through the partitions and a small window at one end sealed with cling wrap, pins and water pressure on the inside. Of course he cling wrap had to be replaced after every shot which necessitated more than half emptying the whole trough and then refilling it.
The patio was constantly awash when the tests were in full swing and each shot took some time. JSB Exacts and Stratons, Kodiaks, CPs, Crow Magnums, Meisterkugelns to name some, were tested with many of each fired. Everyone had their chance to guess how far pellets would travel horizontally ( surveying for that was in itself an interesting exercise ). No one was even close to begin with with opinions varying from a few inches to a foot or so.
No one, including me, had any idea that a Kodiak or Exact would make it to 5 feet ( from said rifle at its MV ). ....... It was a lot of fun and many here who were involved reading the saga will remember it well...... It answered numerous questions about pellet behavior ( for me anyway ) .... Kind regards, Harry
Yrrah
(Login Yrrah)
YF. Here are some pics of some before and after to show the effectsApril 3 2006, 6:26 PM of the water shots on the various pellets. The ones that would be of interest are the ones that were able to be re-shot with great accuracy.. check out the Exact second from the bottom and note its shape change. The wool tests are more convincing as they show similar results without the debate relating to the effects of the water hit versus rifle air blast as the causative.
Unfired on left, fired into water trough on right: Top to bottom, Meister, CM, Gamo master point, Kodiak, Exact, and from memory a Meister shot from Benjamin 342, but would stand correction on that one. Otherwise around 27 / 28 fpe at POI........ BIG splash back out the trough "window" :O(.
Here is a crow magnum.... no chance of shooting it again but although I have not done it, the wool would I think allow it:
I have better close ups of JSB Exacts than this, may find them before this disappears over the page and add them on for you........ Kind regards, Harry.
Edit later: JSBs shot into wool fleece showing the skirt blow out:
[/IMG]
[url="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/Kyogle/Stevestriplepellettest.bmp[/IMG"]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/Kyogle/Stevestriplepellettest.bmp[/IMG[/url]]
[IMG][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/Kyogle/ExactStevesbarrelpressureT2.jpg[/IMG]
[/IMG]
The raw sheep's wool fleece used in these experiments:
[/IMG]
Hope this gives you the picture....
... Lots of pleasant hours spent researching all this stuff..... might write a book one day when my trigger finger gets arthritis ........ Kind regards, Harry.
Please enjoy the read and think of the consequences. << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index Water penetration .... testing ...August 9 2011 at 7:50 PM
Yrrah (Login Yrrah)
YFEvery so often folk want to catch shot pellets to examine the rifling marks, shot shape etc. Raw teased/ carded sheep's fleece or pillow stuffing is best for most pellet types.
Back in 2003 I did a lot of tests catching pellets in water; determining penetration in water; re-shooting pellets already shot into water (surprising); shooting groups into underwater targets and much else.
This was a 2006 abbreviated summary of some of the 2003 experiments: Note the relative damage to non-expanding versus expanding and wadcutter pellets. ... Numerous pics of pellets, groups etc.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1144063591/1144107567
Styrene water troughs used in my experiments. This is a single but three need to be glued together end to end with windows cut through the glued walls to make a 5 ft trough for highest BC pellets like Kodiaks and JSBs, CPs etc. The pellet entry hole is sealed by pinning cling wrap squares to the inside of the shooting window. You will get drenched with water if you do not shoot from at least 10 ft back from the hole!!!
Note that you need a 5 ft water trough to completely expend the momentum of .22 JSBs, CPs and a little more for Kodiaks shot at around 27 fps. ... However, teased out raw wool fleece or pillow stuffing will collect your pellets pretty much undamaged at say 30 yards from your rifle. Recycled pellet groups following water tests in 2003. If you missed it then take a look .April 3 2006 at 7:26 AM
Yrrah (Login Yrrah)
YFI was asked about recycled pellets and old tests. Here is a brief summary of what was done back in 2003. JSB Exacts, CPs and Kodiaks swam the swim virtually unscathed. Kodiaks did just over 5 feet, Exacts did average 59 inches from memory and CPs were in the upper 40s inches. However the extreme expansion of wadcutters and CM hollow points cut their water flight to low travel. ( Definitely NOT candidates for recycling from the TGAWWT ). This all reflected their in-air BC and led to Steve NC and I establishing a BC for water!!! Not everyone thought that had much relevance, but later tests I did on shot-through birds, with pellet velocities measured pre and post bird, confirmed the BC relationships between these pellets and the reasons why round heads are great for penetration and wadcutters and hollow points are good for splat ...... Later JSB Predators proved to be the better splatters than CMs, at least in birds with both more energy and more momentum dumped in the bird....... I digress.
What follows is a heavily edited synopsis but you will get the idea that SOME pellets can be shot and retrieved in excellent condition for examination and even shot again with surprising results.
Raw sheep's wool fleece has replaced TGAWWT for trapping pellets undamaged and will do a much better job on the expanding varieties.
Below: Group ctc = 0.35 inches made underwater after 21 inches of underwater "flight" in The Great Australian White Water Trough. ( A world's record I would think :O))
..."..Given their slightly bigger heads and diminished bore size skirts following the first shooting they made a pretty fair effort the second time around.
Comments?
An in-deeper-than-ever, Yrrah."
And
..."..here is the group promised. Five JSBs shot the second time without any flaring of the skirts or other treatment whatsoever. These were the pellets that had made the 0.35 inch group in the target at the 21 inch mark of their 43.25 inch underwater travel ( Edit: see above group ). Shot both times from the one and only RWS Excalibre at near 28 fpe and this time at 27.34 yards (25 metres) in air of course...."
Here is another 25 metre group shot with JSB Exact pellets recycled from The Great Australian White Water Trough.
The following was a similar experiment done with 14.3 gr Crosman Premier .22 pellets that had also been shot through over 43 inches of water, recovered and shot at 25 metres into the upper left hand group. The lower right group was shot with normal CPs.
To answer another implied question from CG ...... Below is a pellet with a fingers squashed skirt:
And here is the same pellet retrieved after being shot into he Great Aussie White Water Trough:
Yrrah
(Login Yrrah)
YFAll of thatApril 3 2006, 5:33 PM was done back three years ago in '03. The squished skirt thing was done after I had established that five such pellets would shoot as accurately at 25 and 50 metres as pellets directly out of the tin. The water catch test showed that they blew out to apparently the same shape.
The rifle as the same .22 RWS Excalibre ( Tarantula / FX 2000 ) that virtually all my shooting has been done with over the last 4 years..... With the exception of when I use the old Sheridans or Benjamins, I am a one gun man.
At the time it was shooting at 27 / 28 fpe. The tests involved a lot of water, a lot of time and the goodwill of my patient wife. TGAWWT involved ultimately three styrene boxes glued together with large holes cut through the partitions and a small window at one end sealed with cling wrap, pins and water pressure on the inside. Of course he cling wrap had to be replaced after every shot which necessitated more than half emptying the whole trough and then refilling it.
The patio was constantly awash when the tests were in full swing and each shot took some time. JSB Exacts and Stratons, Kodiaks, CPs, Crow Magnums, Meisterkugelns to name some, were tested with many of each fired. Everyone had their chance to guess how far pellets would travel horizontally ( surveying for that was in itself an interesting exercise ). No one was even close to begin with with opinions varying from a few inches to a foot or so.
No one, including me, had any idea that a Kodiak or Exact would make it to 5 feet ( from said rifle at its MV ). ....... It was a lot of fun and many here who were involved reading the saga will remember it well...... It answered numerous questions about pellet behavior ( for me anyway ) .... Kind regards, Harry
Yrrah
(Login Yrrah)
YF. Here are some pics of some before and after to show the effectsApril 3 2006, 6:26 PM of the water shots on the various pellets. The ones that would be of interest are the ones that were able to be re-shot with great accuracy.. check out the Exact second from the bottom and note its shape change. The wool tests are more convincing as they show similar results without the debate relating to the effects of the water hit versus rifle air blast as the causative.
Unfired on left, fired into water trough on right: Top to bottom, Meister, CM, Gamo master point, Kodiak, Exact, and from memory a Meister shot from Benjamin 342, but would stand correction on that one. Otherwise around 27 / 28 fpe at POI........ BIG splash back out the trough "window" :O(.
Here is a crow magnum.... no chance of shooting it again but although I have not done it, the wool would I think allow it:
I have better close ups of JSB Exacts than this, may find them before this disappears over the page and add them on for you........ Kind regards, Harry.
Edit later: JSBs shot into wool fleece showing the skirt blow out:
[url="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/Kyogle/Stevestriplepellettest.bmp[/IMG"]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/Kyogle/Stevestriplepellettest.bmp[/IMG[/url]]
[IMG][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/Kyogle/ExactStevesbarrelpressureT2.jpg[/IMG]
The raw sheep's wool fleece used in these experiments:
Hope this gives you the picture....
?