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Silencer

Forums General Airgunning Silencer

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    Profile photo of farmer44
    farmer44
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    Can someone tell me if these are legal in the state of Pa and if so what would you recomend. It will be going on a BSA superten. Thanks in advance. 

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    jcjc
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    you can’t depend on someone else’s advice from a forum on legal matters. do the research yourself by contacting the proper authorities/legal experts in your state. “billy bob told me this was legal in PA” is not gonna hold up in court if you run into trouble.
    good luck.

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    farmer44
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    I agree I think thats great advice.  

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    Goodtogo
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    Even if states allow you to own one, you still have to jump thru the federal hoops. $200 and wait 6 months or so for the paper work. Bills were put in early in 2017 to change the fee and months of waiting. It is being pushed under hearing protection. It could be next year before that is passed or longer? Here is a list of states that don’t allow them as of April of this year. Buts its a easy subject to look up thru google but make sure of the date on the posts that you are reading.

    The eight states that still ban silencer ownership are California, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island.
     

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    LDP
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    “Goodtogo”Even if states allow you to own one, you still have to jump thru the federal hoops. $200 and wait 6 months or so for the paper work. Bills were put in early in 2017 to change the fee and months of waiting. It is being pushed under hearing protection. It could be next year before that is passed or longer? Here is a list of states that don’t allow them as of April of this year. Buts its a easy subject to look up thru google but make sure of the date on the posts that you are reading.

    The eight states that still ban silencer ownership are California, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island.
     

    
Hes talking about one for an airgun. The hearing protection act has nothing to do with airguns or airgun silencers. The BATF does not regulate airguns or silencers designed for use on airguns. This has been debated many times over.

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    fsa46
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    Farmer, please do not take offence to the following.

    I know you mean no ill intent and just looking for information. However,for what it’s worth, most forums do not allow the word “silencer” to be used on their sites because of all the knuckleheads that try and put an unfavorable spin on it. Moderators or suppressors are the preferred term.  Just thought I’d pass it along for something to consider in the future.

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    farmer44
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    Understand thank you 

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    douger
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    Donny fl sumo the best iv herd  order 1 

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    Dairyboy
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    “douger”Donny fl sumo the best iv herd  order 1 

    +1
     

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    Dan25
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    I am asking fellow members here to call, write or email you congressmen to support the Hearing Protection Act.  This act would make silencers the same as a firearm.  Just order and have sent to your FFL, pass the background check, pay the FFLs fee and be on your way.  Its crazy that we are required to have a muffler on our vehicles but treated like a criminal if we put one on our firearms.

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    Keyman62421
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    First thing I would advise,  never say “silencer” again.   MODERATOR is the terminology for you to use. 

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    farmer44
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    Understood

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    wahoowad
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    Yep. As you can see 50% of the gun experts who couldn’t resist chiming in are wrong already. Call Donny in FL or one of the other guys who make them for airguns and talk to them. Your opinion on the knowledge of the rest of us is quickly going to plummet as this thread continues

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    farmer44
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    Thanks I hear you lol

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    Goodtogo
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    “LDP”

    “Goodtogo”Even if states allow you to own one, you still have to jump thru the federal hoops. $200 and wait 6 months or so for the paper work. Bills were put in early in 2017 to change the fee and months of waiting. It is being pushed under hearing protection. It could be next year before that is passed or longer? Here is a list of states that don’t allow them as of April of this year. Buts its a easy subject to look up thru google but make sure of the date on the posts that you are reading.

    The eight states that still ban silencer ownership are California, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island.

     

    
Hes talking about one for an airgun. The hearing protection act has nothing to do with airguns or airgun silencers. The BATF does not regulate airguns or silencers designed for use on airguns. This has been debated many times over.

    I’m not saying what you can or can’t put on an airgun? Its simple to look up as I said.  I think if it can be removed and added to a different gun it can make a difference? here is what the ATF has on their website.(and I do have the type that can be removed on a couple of my rifles) And for me its not a debate since I have no real idea what is correct or not correct.

    the following is from the ATF site

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-paintball-andor-airgun-sound-suppressers-nfa-firearms

    The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

    Numerous paintball and airgun silencers tested by ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch have been determined to be, by nature of their design and function, firearm silencers. Because silencers are NFA weapons, an individual wishing to manufacture or transfer such a silencer must receive prior approval from ATF and pay the required tax.

    [26 U.S.C. 5845; 27 CFR 479.11]

    Edit: I always wondered what it takes to get a negative thanks @LDP for showing me how to get one.  😉

     

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by Goodtogo.
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    Saltlake58
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    Ok, I’ll bite.  You can see that this is a very touchy subject in the airgun forums.  My advice, get better advice than I can give.  As I understand it, here’s the rub on moderators.

    BATF regulates powder burners under the firearms act of 1934 which specifically specifies anything that dampens the sound of a gun (powder burner type gun here) must be registered and I think it’s a $200 tax stamp.

    The Firearms Act of 1934 does NOT cover air guns or air gun accessories including moderators.

    I think I’m on safe ground with those two statements, but here’s the problem.  If someone builds a moderator for an airgun, but that moderator can also be installed on a powder burner, and functions as a sound dampening device, it’s a silencer (sorry, had to use the word) under the Firearms act of 1934.  So, Moderators are in a legal gray area.  If it can’t be put on a powder burner and function as a silencer, you should be OK (don’t assume, get real advice), but if it can be put on a powder burner, pay the tax.

    You can see why this gets to be so touchy here.  There isn’t a clearly defined answer.  BATF have been asked numerous times for an opinion, but they won’t give one as it might impact that gray area.   

    This is where I say, I wish we were like the Brits and encouraged moderators so it wouldn’t disturb the neighbors.  

    As a manufacturer, Donny FL would have a boatload more information than any of us do, so might want to contact him.  My guess is (and this opinion is worth what you paid for it), his moderators are made of materials that would blow off the end of a powder burner after a shot or two or simply disintegrate from the muzzle blast, so probably legal under BATF definitions.  He’ll know the details.

    Now as for state rules for moderators on air rifles. you need local advice on that one.  Some states don’t care and some may regulate (though I’m not aware of any regulating moderated air guns).  

    Good luck no your quest!  Oh, and I think AOA is finally selling some moderators.  Utah Airguns had some when I visited a couple weeks ago as well.

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    donnyfl
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    Hey guys, I figured I chime in. As you know I used to make CF LDCs and always steer clear of making them out of aluminum afraid of getting in trouble with the law. I’ve talked to members in the airgun community who are lawyers and my personal lawyer for my business and they reviewed the case of The United States of America vs Crooker. They advised me that I am mainly dealing with airguns and ATF does not regulate them since they are not firearms. What it comes down to is your INTENT how you plan to use the product. My intent is for Airgun use only. I’ve placed that disclaimer on my website as well as laser etched that on the LDCs. In order to use my LDC threaded with 1/2 x 20 on a firearm, there has to be modifications made in order to fit the gun. So the modification is intent to use on firearm and in this case you would get in trouble. Any thing can be made into a suppressor for example and I am sure you’ve seen youtube videos of people attaching a car oil filter. Owning an oil filter will not get you in trouble but if you also own an adapter that attaches the filter to your firearm then you better have a tax stamp for that filter. 

    Here is the case I referenced above: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1527670.html

    Neil and I talk from time to time and this subject comes up a lot. Just be safe, use the product for what it is intended for and you should be ok. There are some states that consider airguns as firearms so do your part and familiarize yourself with the state and local government laws.

    It is true what Saltlake said that dealers are starting to carry them for sale. I see them in many places now that didn’t carry them before. 

     

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    LDP
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    Yes it all comes down to intent. Airguns use 1/2×20 and firearms in .22 cal use 1/2×28 and larger calibers use larger thread sizes. So in order for a suppressor for an airgun to be deemed a firearms suppressor the batf has to show intent to use it on a firearm. There are two ways for that to happen. 
    intent #1: You have an adapter that goes from 1/2×20 to 1/2×28. 
    Intent #2: You have a firearm re threaded to 1/2×20. 

    Without either they cannot prove intent. You cannot screw a suppressor onto a firearm with different threads. It is a very clearly stated law when you actually read it completely. The court has ruled in a very clear manner on this subject in the past. The court made it very clear that the suppressor had to be designed to fit a firearm and be used on a firearm or had been altered to do so by the person. They ruled that way for a very good reason. If they didnt put that wording into the law we would all be felons if the batf wanted to prosecute us for having tape and an empty coke bottle in our house. 

    To prove this point even further look at the hugget suppressors aoa sales with pcp rifles. Yes they use a liquid bonding agent so it doesnt unscrew from the barrel but the batf does not recognize that as a permanent install. In order to comply with batf rules it must be either blind pinned or welded on to be considered a permanent install making it part of the rifle. Since you can easily heat it up and unscrew it aoa would be putting themselves in a legal situation if suppressors designed and intended to be used on airguns were illegal. Believe what you want its your choice but the supreme court has already ruled on this. 

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    donnyfl
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    “LDP”Yes it all comes down to intent. Airguns use 1/2×20 and firearms in .22 cal use 1/2×28 and larger calibers use larger thread sizes. So in order for a suppressor for an airgun to be deemed a firearms suppressor the batf has to show intent to use it on a firearm. There are two ways for that to happen. 
    intent #1: You have an adapter that goes from 1/2×20 to 1/2×28. 
    Intent #2: You have a firearm re threaded to 1/2×20. 

    Without either they cannot prove intent. You cannot screw a suppressor onto a firearm with different threads. It is a very clearly stated law when you actually read it completely. The court has ruled in a very clear manner on this subject in the past. The court made it very clear that the suppressor had to be designed to fit a firearm and be used on a firearm or had been altered to do so by the person. They ruled that way for a very good reason. If they didnt put that wording into the law we would all be felons if the batf wanted to prosecute us for having tape and an empty coke bottle in our house. 

    To prove this point even further look at the hugget suppressors aoa sales with pcp rifles. Yes they use a liquid bonding agent so it doesnt unscrew from the barrel but the batf does not recognize that as a permanent install. In order to comply with batf rules it must be either blind pinned or welded on to be considered a permanent install making it part of the rifle. Since you can easily heat it up and unscrew it aoa would be putting themselves in a legal situation if suppressors designed and intended to be used on airguns were illegal. Believe what you want its your choice but the supreme court has already ruled on this. 

    
Well said LDP

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    Alan
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    Well said Donny!

    We all know that these devices DO NOT silence anything (especially the critics!). Rather, they moderate the level thus reducing it to an acceptable level, typically low enough that ear protection isn’t needed. This said, the common vernacular among critics has always been “silencer” (thanks to Hiram Percy Maxim, the inventor). Calling them moderators, LDCs, or by other euphemisms only satisfies the pundits—that’s us. In my opinion, calling them silencers doesn’t do as much harm as bragging about large-bore, high FPE airguns which shoot bullets instead of pellets. At least we should be thinking about that issue, and others, which draw more attention from the fed than a vernacular form of a device.

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by Alan.
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