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12ft/lbs or just leave it be

Forums General Airgunning 12ft/lbs or just leave it be

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    josh3rd
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    Soon in the very near future my replacement Prosport will be in my hands. My question is: 

    Should I just shoot it as it comes (and hopefully get a fitted guide) or get it down in the 12-13ft/lb area? 

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    Dirte
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    I went with the SHO Vortek kit, but I would not be past using 12 ftp kit. The kit sure made it better to shoot. It is shooting around 890 fps. BTW mine is a .177 TX200.

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by Dirte.
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    Skip-in-WV
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    See what it shoots after a tin or two through it. I read an article in Airgun World that suggested cocking it and put it cocked in a closet for 6 weeks. Shooting 2 tins is much faster. Chrony it new. And again after 2 tins. You may not have to change anything depending on what pellets it likes.

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    “Dirte”I went with the SHO Vortek kit, but I would not be past using 12 ftp kit. The kit sure made it better to shoot. it is shooting around 890 fps. BTW mine is a .177 TX200.

    
Thanks for the input brother but my only hang up is that I have heard that Fortec has been falling short or had fell short when making their 12 foot pound kits. I’m not sure if this is the case anymore or not but hearing things like that makes me kind of hesitant. I wonder if JM kits that he makes does he actually make the Delrin spring guide to fit the spring kit itself?

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    josh3rd
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    “Skip-in-WV”See what it shoots after a tin or two through it. I read an article in Airgun World that suggested cocking it and put it cocked in a closet for 6 weeks. Shooting 2 tins is much faster. Chrony it new. And again after 2 tins. You may not have to change anything depending on what pellets it likes.

    
True that skip. NCEd said the same…just shoot it

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    Butch
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    I have the tx200 .22cal and shot it for a while stock. Was accurate out of the box but had twang. Did the SHO Vortek kit and liked the shot cycle a lot and still just as accurate. After talking to others decided to replace the SHO spring with the 12fpe spring and love it. Shot cycle is just smooth and made accuracy even better. At 50yards my goal is to make one hole in the target with 5 shots and do it quite often. My advice to you is shoot it first then make the call. IMHO. 

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    “Butch”I have the tx200 .22cal and shot it for a while stock. Was accurate out of the box but had twang. Did the SHO Vortek kit and liked the shot cycle a lot and still just as accurate. After talking to others decided to replace the SHO spring with the 12fpe spring and love it. Shot cycle is just smooth and made accuracy even better. At 50yards my goal is to make one hole in the target with 5 shots and do it quite often. My advice to you is shoot it first then make the call. IMHO. 

    
Good advice. That’s what I’m planning on doing. Thanks brother

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    cosmic
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    maccri guides are steel..

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    nced
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    Not always………..

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by nced.
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    josh3rd
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    “nced”Not always………..

    
So Ed I do plan on taking your advice as to just shoot it but I would just like to be prepared for if I wanted to go the route of getting a “tune kit” of since the majority feels that JM’s products are preferred now I was just getting people’s opinions as to what type of kit of his as you probably already know from my posts on the yellow and GTA. But you have a lot of experience and knowledge in springers. So tell me your opinions of these questions:
    1) Go 12ft/lb or leave Prosport at factory        power level?

    2) If 12ft/lb, which spring of JM is preferable since there is no listed kits for Prosport/TX?

    3) do you offer services for making a spring guide and top hat?

    4) if so, ddo you need while rifle oor just action? And what is the cost?

    5) if you don’t offer that or any type of services then do or whom would you suggest?

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    nced
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    “1) Go 12ft/lb or leave Prosport at factory        power level?”
    Shoot it at the factory power level for a while (perhaps 2 tins of pellets) then decide.

    “2) If 12ft/lb, which spring of JM is preferable since there is no listed kits for Prosport/TX?”
    I don’t have a clue since I have no ProSport experience at all.

    “3) do you offer services for making a spring guide and top hat?”
    I have made some guides for HW offerings but no ProSport guides and I make no metal spring guides.
    I’m sure that there are folks here that are more qualified than I for the ProSport.

    “4) if so, do you need while rifle or just action? And what is the cost?”
    If I were to fit spring guides all that’s needed would be the spring and the factory spring guides to use as a “go by”.
    In the past I’ve charged $65 for a new spring and fitted guides which included return shipping.

    “5) if you don’t offer that or any type of services then do or whom would you suggest?”
    I have no suggestions if JM doesn’t offer a ProSport kit, perhaps some here would know a good source. The only “pre-made kits” I’ve ever bought was a Maccari kit for my HW35 & Beeman R10 decades ago, and a Vortek PG2 kit for my R9 which I wasn’t very happy with. Except for those three kits I’ve only bought bare springs and “rolled my own”. I have pretty good knowledge of some HW springers but not so much for other brands.

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    Ed I wish you knew how valuable you are to The Airgun community. You take your time and answer every question that I have ever asked you as well as others on the yellow form and here and so forth. I just want to say thank you and I’m seriously meaning what I’m saying. Thank you Ed. You may not know too much about prosport but you do know about airguns so your opinions matter. Oh yeah, why not metal guides? And is the a preference in piston seals too? And as for the vortek stuff… I have a PG2 kit in my RWS 54 and so far it seems okay. But I hate doubting myself meaning I wish I had the means and the opportunity to try let’s say a jm kit in there or a tinbum kit or a regular spring with a fitted guide and so on and so forth. Well I hope it starts snowing up here so I can start shoveling maybe a couple extra dollars, LOL. Thanks again

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    Butch
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    Your front spring/top hat is already plastic in the prosport. They do shoot smoother than the tx right out of the box. Any twang on the prosport come from a loose fitting metal rear guide. Lots of people are happy with both ARH and Vortek kits and Tom at Vortek is great to work with. The SHO kit is very good and if still to jumpy for you just have Tom send you a 12fpe spring to put in your SHO kit. Shoot the gun first and then decide. Some are perfect right out of the box. IMHO. 

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    Good advice butch, thank you

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    nced
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    “Oh yeah, why not metal guides?”
    Because “plastic” guides dampen twang/vibration better than metal guides. For max velocity from a spring, a hard steel guide surface that’s tight fitting to the spring and lubed with molly paste is more slippery than a tight Delrin guide with a softer surface in the same spring. The slippery hard surface of a metal guide also makes “twang/vibration reduction” more of a challenge since the spring coils continue oscillating on the metal guide after the shot.

    Since I never try to get “max velocity” with my HW95/R9 tunes anyway I use a thinner wire spring giving a nice 12.5ish fpe power level (7.9 grain pellet at about 850fps) which works well with my HW95/R9 weight springers. Also, as I’ve mentioned in other replies…….in a couple decades I’ve never had a failure with my tight fitting Delrin guides……….

    “And is the a preference in piston seals too?”
    Decades ago I started cutting my own aluminum oring sealed piston caps for my R9s because the combination of the factory thin edged HW parachute seal, molly paste, and spring tar created poi issues during a shooting session (like a field target match) if the shooting temp variation exceeded about 20F. When I switched to oring sealed pistons “way back when” I could pick up 40-50fps with the same spring vs the factory HW piston seal. At that time I switched from .128 wire springs to .120 wire springs because I could still maintain my favorite velocity with easier cocking, less gun motion, and less scope trashing. For me “form follows function” so in the beginning I would tune my .177 R9 to shoot 7.9 grain CPLs at around 910fps. The reason for “910fps” is because my scopes at that time only had duplex reticles and I learned that when my gun was zero’d at 30 yards the tip of the “lower reticle post” would be on the poi at both 10 yards and 50 yards. For the intermediate distances I would bracket the killzone between the cross hair and tip of lower post. For the 55 yard targets I would put the tip of the lower post on the top edge of the killzone and the pellet would go through the killzone. When I started using “dotted reticles” (mil dot and such) I had more aiming points to accommodate a loopier reticle so my normal velocity has been reduced to the 830 to 860fps level depending on the “urge of the moment”. LOL….I think that I have as much fun messing with my springers as I do actually shooting them.
    Anywhoo….while I still fit my springers with oring sealed piston caps I did find that the later HW piston seal design with thick parachute edge and reduced “waist” performs so close to my oring sealed caps that it really isn’t necessary to go through the oring sealed cap route. Here is a pic showing HW piston seal design over the years………..

    Here is an early oring sealed piston cap………

    Here is one of my newer piston caps where I’ve added a Delrin bearing ……..

    There is another benefit for oring sealed piston caps for my HW pistons…….the face of the cap doesn’t erode at the transfer port like this………


    However even the erosion issue seems to be mitigated with the new design (new as of a few years ago) since this pic shows almost no “wear” at all……..

    I do have to mention however that the newer HW piston seals vary quite a bit in fit to the receivers with some fitting too loose (for my taste) and some fitting correctly (IMHO). When tuning a HW95 for a friend I found that the piston seal of his new gun was rather loose fitting so I took another new HW95 piston seal from my parts bin and it fit perfectly in the same receiver.

    Since you mentioned piston seals, I found that the Vortek VAC seal worked well in my R9 without the need for sizing, however a Maccari Hornet seal was made from a harder material that needed to be “sized to fit” unless I wanted a 1000 shot break in period. Of the three molded seals, I personally prefer a good fitting HW factory seal if I weren’t using my oring sealed piston caps.

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    Butch
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    Nced as seeing your pics and reading your post I think I’m going to order some krytox and give it a try. It looks promising and have read up on it quite a bit. I think I’m going to use one of my 34s as a tester. Thanks nced for exactly what I needed to see. 

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    josh3rd
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    “nced”“Oh yeah, why not metal guides?”
    Because “plastic” guides dampen twang/vibration better than metal guides. For max velocity from a spring, a hard steel guide surface that’s tight fitting to the spring and lubed with molly paste is more slippery than a tight Delrin guide with a softer surface in the same spring. The slippery hard surface of a metal guide also makes “twang/vibration reduction” more of a challenge since the spring coils continue oscillating on the metal guide after the shot.

    Since I never try to get “max velocity” with my HW95/R9 tunes anyway I use a thinner wire spring giving a nice 12.5ish fpe power level (7.9 grain pellet at about 850fps) which works well with my HW95/R9 weight springers. Also, as I’ve mentioned in other replies…….in a couple decades I’ve never had a failure with my tight fitting Delrin guides……….

    “And is the a preference in piston seals too?”
    Decades ago I started cutting my own aluminum oring sealed piston caps for my R9s because the combination of the factory thin edged HW parachute seal, molly paste, and spring tar created poi issues during a shooting session (like a field target match) if the shooting temp variation exceeded about 20F. When I switched to oring sealed pistons “way back when” I could pick up 40-50fps with the same spring vs the factory HW piston seal. At that time I switched from .128 wire springs to .120 wire springs because I could still maintain my favorite velocity with easier cocking, less gun motion, and less scope trashing. For me “form follows function” so in the beginning I would tune my .177 R9 to shoot 7.9 grain CPLs at around 910fps. The reason for “910fps” is because my scopes at that time only had duplex reticles and I learned that when my gun was zero’d at 30 yards the tip of the “lower reticle post” would be on the poi at both 10 yards and 50 yards. For the intermediate distances I would bracket the killzone between the cross hair and tip of lower post. For the 55 yard targets I would put the tip of the lower post on the top edge of the killzone and the pellet would go through the killzone. When I started using “dotted reticles” (mil dot and such) I had more aiming points to accommodate a loopier reticle so my normal velocity has been reduced to the 830 to 860fps level depending on the “urge of the moment”. LOL….I think that I have as much fun messing with my springers as I do actually shooting them.
    Anywhoo….while I still fit my springers with oring sealed piston caps I did find that the later HW piston seal design with thick parachute edge and reduced “waist” performs so close to my oring sealed caps that it really isn’t necessary to go through the oring sealed cap route. Here is a pic showing HW piston seal design over the years………..

    Here is an early oring sealed piston cap………

    Here is one of my newer piston caps where I’ve added a Delrin bearing ……..

    There is another benefit for oring sealed piston caps for my HW pistons…….the face of the cap doesn’t erode at the transfer port like this………


    However even the erosion issue seems to be mitigated with the new design (new as of a few years ago) since this pic shows almost no “wear” at all……..

    I do have to mention however that the newer HW piston seals vary quite a bit in fit to the receivers with some fitting too loose (for my taste) and some fitting correctly (IMHO). When tuning a HW95 for a friend I found that the piston seal of his new gun was rather loose fitting so I took another new HW95 piston seal from my parts bin and it fit perfectly in the same receiver.

    Since you mentioned piston seals, I found that the Vortek VAC seal worked well in my R9 without the need for sizing, however a Maccari Hornet seal was made from a harder material that needed to be “sized to fit” unless I wanted a 1000 shot break in period. Of the three molded seals, I personally prefer a good fitting HW factory seal if I weren’t using my oring sealed piston caps.

    
Ed you have no idea how much that information meant to me. Thank you for putting the time and effort into your response. I am just going to shoot it and see how it is. Then I’ll decide if I should go the 12ft/lb route or having someone make me a fitted guide and top hat. But I’m leaning to the 12fpe because when the Prosport was made I believe that it was made for  12fpe shooting.  That is the only hang up I’m having now…as to which route to go. I wonder if the Prosport would benefit from a new hw parachute seal, vortek vac or a jm hornet seal. Well thank you again.

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    josh3rd
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    “nced”“Oh yeah, why not metal guides?”
    Because “plastic” guides dampen twang/vibration better than metal guides. For max velocity from a spring, a hard steel guide surface that’s tight fitting to the spring and lubed with molly paste is more slippery than a tight Delrin guide with a softer surface in the same spring. The slippery hard surface of a metal guide also makes “twang/vibration reduction” more of a challenge since the spring coils continue oscillating on the metal guide after the shot.

    Since I never try to get “max velocity” with my HW95/R9 tunes anyway I use a thinner wire spring giving a nice 12.5ish fpe power level (7.9 grain pellet at about 850fps) which works well with my HW95/R9 weight springers. Also, as I’ve mentioned in other replies…….in a couple decades I’ve never had a failure with my tight fitting Delrin guides……….

    “And is the a preference in piston seals too?”
    Decades ago I started cutting my own aluminum oring sealed piston caps for my R9s because the combination of the factory thin edged HW parachute seal, molly paste, and spring tar created poi issues during a shooting session (like a field target match) if the shooting temp variation exceeded about 20F. When I switched to oring sealed pistons “way back when” I could pick up 40-50fps with the same spring vs the factory HW piston seal. At that time I switched from .128 wire springs to .120 wire springs because I could still maintain my favorite velocity with easier cocking, less gun motion, and less scope trashing. For me “form follows function” so in the beginning I would tune my .177 R9 to shoot 7.9 grain CPLs at around 910fps. The reason for “910fps” is because my scopes at that time only had duplex reticles and I learned that when my gun was zero’d at 30 yards the tip of the “lower reticle post” would be on the poi at both 10 yards and 50 yards. For the intermediate distances I would bracket the killzone between the cross hair and tip of lower post. For the 55 yard targets I would put the tip of the lower post on the top edge of the killzone and the pellet would go through the killzone. When I started using “dotted reticles” (mil dot and such) I had more aiming points to accommodate a loopier reticle so my normal velocity has been reduced to the 830 to 860fps level depending on the “urge of the moment”. LOL….I think that I have as much fun messing with my springers as I do actually shooting them.
    Anywhoo….while I still fit my springers with oring sealed piston caps I did find that the later HW piston seal design with thick parachute edge and reduced “waist” performs so close to my oring sealed caps that it really isn’t necessary to go through the oring sealed cap route. Here is a pic showing HW piston seal design over the years………..

    Here is an early oring sealed piston cap………

    Here is one of my newer piston caps where I’ve added a Delrin bearing ……..

    There is another benefit for oring sealed piston caps for my HW pistons…….the face of the cap doesn’t erode at the transfer port like this………


    However even the erosion issue seems to be mitigated with the new design (new as of a few years ago) since this pic shows almost no “wear” at all……..

    I do have to mention however that the newer HW piston seals vary quite a bit in fit to the receivers with some fitting too loose (for my taste) and some fitting correctly (IMHO). When tuning a HW95 for a friend I found that the piston seal of his new gun was rather loose fitting so I took another new HW95 piston seal from my parts bin and it fit perfectly in the same receiver.

    Since you mentioned piston seals, I found that the Vortek VAC seal worked well in my R9 without the need for sizing, however a Maccari Hornet seal was made from a harder material that needed to be “sized to fit” unless I wanted a 1000 shot break in period. Of the three molded seals, I personally prefer a good fitting HW factory seal if I weren’t using my oring sealed piston caps.

    
Also Ed, the hw parachute seal as being good, JM hornet seal as being good and a vortek vac seal as being good as well then you have the Air Arms Prosport oem seal. Now which one would I choose? They are all good. And you can buy all 4 of them but it would take a amount of time and x amount of pellets before one can make a decision. Then there is the spring. A .128 or a .120 inch or whatever. I wish it was easier like get this spring with this seal and the rest is up to the shooter (me).

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    nced
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    “I wonder if the Prosport would benefit from a new hw parachute seal,”
    Nope….the Air Arma TX200 and Prosport are a completely different design than a HW piston seal. The Air Arms piston seals are a “donut type seal” with a hole in the middle at the central transfer port. IMHO, the AA design is a better design because it puts the steel face of the piston directly opposed to the transfer port so the seal doesn’t “see” the heat of the air blast at the port.
    https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Arms_Piston_Seal_Fits_TX200_Pro_Sport_Air_Rifles/4083

    “Air Arms Prosport oem seal. Now which one would I choose?”
    I personally think that Air Arms make good stuff so I personally think that you won’t need to mess with Prosport piston seals for YEARS with your new gun.
    IMHO…..if needed, get OEM!

     

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    nced
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    Some Krytox info…………
    https://www.chemours.com/Lubricants/en_US/tech_info/Index.html

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