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WEIGHED A FEW MKII TODAY

I got a special delivery yesterday from my friends at Airguns of Airizona...I was having anxiety attacks because I was almost out of MKII's! :-o So anyway, I cleaned and weighed 12 cans today...Whew! You want extreme accuracy? Then be prepared to suffer a little to get it! By the way, that is one of my Wildcats...her name is Domino. She got mad because I taped the towel to the table, so she couldn't pull it all off on the floor when I get up to go do something...a neat trick she has pulled on me a couple times so far. ;-)
All the best, Chuck
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Very cool. Would you group any of these together or do you intend to keep them separate for testing?

Did you wash these first? Do you intend to lube them? What are going going to do test wise to verify the effect the different weights have on shots? Inquiring minds want to know :)

My scale came in the mail yesterday. I got it for very cheap. But it did not say "used". It is used. I checked it with the calibration weight and it is still accurate. The ultimate test is to weigh a pellet, pick it up and place it again 3 times to see if it gives you the same weight. It does. So I think I'm ok. 

Crusher
 
Chuck, on a smaller scale my weighed groups of MKI's looks very similar. I'm throwing my 33.6's through 33.9's together, like wise with the 34.0's through 34.4's. I figure in the big scheme .3 to .4 of a grain probably won't be noticeable unless we have he convenience of an indoor range or with perfect outdoor conditions. Just my thinking. How far out does your scale measure? I rounded my 1/100th up or down to the nearest 10th. Oh yeah after weighing that many I'd have something mixed with that Coke. I bet you were glad to see that last one, kinda like cleaning fish...
Jimmy
 
Hi Crusher,
I clean them with Acetone, then I weigh them to within a tenth of a grain of each other, then I lube them with Napier Power Pellet Lube, and then shoot from each separate batch. You just won't believe what this does for your accuracy until you try it for yourself, but think about it...on the table are pellets that weigh from 32.8 grains all the way up to 34.9 grains. Imagine putting one pellet from each pile in your magazine and shooting them at a target, versus only putting pellets from one pile in your magazine and shooting them at a target...think there is going to be any difference? You better believe there is, so you see the point in weighing pellets. You want to improve your accuracy? This is just one factor in the equation, but it is an important one.

By the way, I want it understood that every brand of .25 caliber pellets I have ever weighed has anywhere from 12-21 different weights in a can...regardless of manufacturer! I say that because I started this topic to educate people interested in better accuracy out of their airguns, not to single out and criticize any one manufacturer. Some are better than others, but they are all pretty much the same. The pellets that I weighed today just happen to be the ones I buy to shoot in my Wildcat and my Streamline because they are thee most accurate pellets for my rifles bar none! It is just that they are much more accurate when they are weighed into separate groups that weigh the same, so they can later be shot at targets from the same batches. 

So now you guys see how I buy pellets and what I do to them before I shoot them...if the weather's nice these 12 cans should last for at least a month anyway. I hope some of you guys try this for yourselves. I don't know how or if it works for .177 or .22 caliber pellets, but it will be up to one of you guys to figure that out and share the info with the rest of us. I will show you the scale I use because it is the best one of several I have tried in the past.
Here is a link for the digital scale I use now: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/142513/lyman-micro-touch-electronic-powder-scale-1500-grain-capacity-110-volt
All the best, Chuck

 
My God Jimmy it is exactly like cleaning a hundred bluegills! I am laughing right out loud! What a perfect analogy! Hee hee hee! The Lyman 1500 I am now using measures them to the tenth of a grain which is perfect. And it shows the same weight for a pellet regardless of how many times you check one. The problem with a lot of the cheap digital scales is when you put a pellet on the scale it takes forever for it to settle on a number, and then if you reweigh pellets from a particular pile you get all kinds of different weights! That drove me crazy...until I got a Lyman. As fast as I can pick up a pellet off the scale and drop it on the pile where it goes, the other one on the scale is ready to come off. I weigh with both hands...one puts a pellet on the scale at the same time the other hand is taking one off. But 3600 in one day is my own personal record! And your right to say this could drive a person to mix something in their Coca-Cola...although I haven't had a drop of alcohol or a cigarette in 4 1/2 years if I had to do this every day I might start up again! ;-) 

Here is a picture of three cans of MK1's I weighed a few days ago, and my Lyman scale. And also a couple pics that show me measuring the head size of some pellets that had a big difference in weight, but no difference at all in head size strangely enough.

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One of the things I forgot to tell you guys is the effect this has on your chronograph numbers. If you take some pellets that all weigh the same to within a tenth of a grain and shoot them over your chrono, you will be amazed at how tight the numbers are. Conversely, if you then shoot some over your chrono that came straight from a can of pellets that haven't been weighed you will just be amazed at the difference. Which only makes sense that the lighter ones are going at a higher velocity than the heavier ones do, and therefore why some hit higher or lower on the target at longer ranges. 

So this is a tip for when you are adjusting your regulator and/or your hammer spring tension...shoot only pellets of the same weight during your chrono testing after each adjustment you make. You will be happy you did...and you do want to be happy don't you? ;-)
Best regards, Chuck
 
That is the gaussian distribution, you see this spread everywhere in the nature. These are manufactured by man but you still see the spread thats normal.
you can read up on here
https://blog.masterofproject.com/six-sigma-statistics/
how do you see i t -it all depends on how high you set your expectations.

to prove your point, i.e. that it is worth sorting into such high number of very narrow bands/groups could you shoot 3x10shot groups of 3 chosen 'different' weights at a set long distance using graph paper? I need to be still convinced by seeing POI results.

try to quantify, by how much in mms the POI changed for example.
all i want to help you to speed up the process, so you dont need to split them into so many groups.
let us know some real target results, cant wait to see them
cheers

 
Dear Chuck,

You have compiled a very important dataset. I appreciate your patience and dedication.what you have done is a very big thing. Believe me similar type of dataset will be compiled by a research scholar or a Master's student doing a research in ballistics. To go further,

a.) One may measure the head size, skirt size, total length, weight, density and weight of pellet. 

b) then, one may create groups of pellet based on the head size, skirt, total lenght, weight etc.

c) after that few pellets from each groups may be shot at different pressure values under controlled environment. Moreover, velocity of the pellet can be measured at different places viz. Muzzle, intermediate and at the end.

d) the data generated through this process can be analysed in a Graphical plotting software suchas MATLAB to establish relationships between the variables.

Once again, big admiration to your dedication. I hope your work will progress further and your objectives will be met.

Am i sounding like "LENARD" ... 

Regards,
Mayank
 
I actually enjoy sorting pellets. I don't do marathon sessions like Chuck, but a tin at a time. And I sort them into old tins just like he did.
But I've just started this.

One thing I think I noticed - it looks like the JSB pellets are lubed already? After handling that many, there is an oil-like residue on the scale and the pellets seem to feel like they are lubed. Are they?
 
Hello to everyone! I went shooting today with pellets sorted by weight yesterday. I want to thank you guys for your input and comments. 

David: I posted two pictures above measuring the head size of pellets that weighed 33.0 gr. and 34.5 gr. with my calipers.They show that despite the weight difference, the head sizes were the same at 6.35mm. I don't have a clue what pellet manufacturers use to lubricate their pellets to keep them from clumping together during the manufacturing process, but I do not like the crappy residue it leaves in the barrel. That buildup of that crud causes accuracy to plummet eventually...which is why I clean all my pellets.
Widget: It was an awful lot to do in one sitting and I probably won't do that many in one day again anytime soon, but I admit that I actually enjoyed it. I put the TV on Turner Classic Movies and weighed pellets and listened to some great old movies while doing it. 
Havoc: I am amused because you say that now, but once you see the results you may change your mind about it. Or maybe you could hire someone to weigh some pellets for you? 
Mayank and Sirk: I am going to leave it up to you guys to do all the super scientific testing and extrapolate the results. I sincerely hope you will do so just as a thought experiment if nothing else. I am fascinated by your words and understand some of what you say, but unfortunately I am not trained in those disciplines. I am merely an enthusiast that has an insatiable curiosity about all the variables in the equation that is related to this thing called accuracy. I do know that in any equation there must be certain constants as a basis for accurate conclusions, and for extrapolating results to untested areas. What I am endeavouring to do here is find those constants, and in weighing these pellets I have discovered that one of the most important factors in my accuracy tests must be pellets that all weigh the same. If they did not, then all results could be called into question.

So, I went shooting today at my friends backyard at a measured 50 yards, with pellets that were weighed out yesterday...it was about 80 degrees with about 90% humidity and very overcast and drizzling at times. But there was no wind at all...not a breath of air was moving the palm frond tips even. All shots were over my chronograph.

I started out shooting the MKII pellets out of my FX Streamline that were weighed to 33.9 grains. I was immediately dismayed because I got an average velocity of 872 ft/s, and the last time I shot her with unsorted pellets the avg. V was 882 ft/s. Why such a big difference? I removed the stock to make sure the hammer spring nut hadn't moved on me...knowing I had secured it with VibraTite. Since that wasn't the culprit, I sat there wondering if my regulator might have somehow gotten out of whack, and yet knowing that wasn't really a credible possibility either, and I didn't want to take her all apart to check the reg. out in the weather on an inclement day...Then it hit me like a ton of bricks! The last time I shot her was with unsorted pellets and today I was shooting her with pellets sorted according to their weight! 

Then I had an idea! I shot some pellets that all weighed 33.0 grains and promptly got an avg. velocity of 882 ft/s! An increase in velocity of 10 ft/s over the 33.9 grain pellets by by just a one grain decrease in weight! So I then shot some pellets that all weighed 34.9 grains and got an avg. velocity of 862 ft/s! A 10 ft/s drop in velocity below the 33.9gr. pellets by just a one grain increase in weight! And I also discovered that MK1 pellets that weigh 33.9 grains shoot an avg. of 7 ft/s slower than the MKII 33.9 grain pellets do! I guess because of the increased drag caused by them having slightly larger skirts?

This discovery is very important to me because I have been struggling desperately to get my two FX rifles to shoot at a constant velocity each time. In the last couple months I have experimented extensively with my Huma regulators' pressure settings and plenum sizes, in an attempt to get them to give me the same results each and every time. I used to weigh pellets but stopped because I had so much trouble with my factory regulators arbitrarily fluctuating up and down, so I figured what was the point and stopped weighing them. But in testing my Huma regulators with my new Huma reg tester I discovered that my Huma regs were giving me a fairly exact pressure for each shot...and thought there couldn't be a great difference in velocity from shot to shot due to hammer spring release velocity. Then I remembered the great disparity in the weight of the pellets in every tin I ever weighed, regardless of manufacturer. The answer was right in front of me!

So I got a new Lyman scale and weighed some MK1 Heavy's, shot them out of my Wildcat and was amazed at how tight the chrono numbers were. At the time I mistakenly thought it was the addition of a heavier brass hammer weight that caused the chrono numbers to tighten up so much, but I now know the only thing the heavier hammer weight does is allow me to use less turns on the spring adjustment nut. The real reason the chrono numbers were so close is because all the pellets I shot over it weighed the same amount. I am such an idiot for not seeing what was right in front of me all along! Of course a tin of pellets with 20 different pellet weights is going to give 20 different velocity readings over the chronograph! 

One great benefit to shooting pellets that all weigh the same is NO MORE FLYERS! The ones shot from each batch that weighed the same were going into one hole groups of not more than 3/8" at 50 yards! And that is with me just me putting the crosshairs on a spot, squeezing the trigger, writing down the chrono number on my tablet, and then doing it again and again and again all day. Just absolutely effortless accuracy without even trying!

A second great benefit is my chronograph numbers are super tight now...just the way I thought they should have been all along! From now on before I make an adjustment to one of my regulators, or my hammer spring tension, or any thing else for that matter, I am going to shoot pellets that all weigh the same over my chronograph to establish a baseline for comparison. Then shoot pellets of the same weight after I make the change and compare the results. The bottom line is it was not my regulators nor my hammer spring tension adjustments causing the great disparity in my chrono numbers...it was the great disparity in pellet weights that caused the chrono numbers to be unfairly askew!

These numbers are from shooting the MKII pellets weighed to 33.9 grains out of my Streamline today: 873, 872, 869, 871, 872, 870, 873, 873, 872, 870, 869, 874, 874, 873, 873, 871, 875, 873, 873, 875, 874, 870, 873, 873, 874, 872, 873, 872, 872, 869. Avg=872 ft/s SD=1.6 ft/s ES=6 ft/s.

These numbers are from shooting the MK1 pellets weighed to 33.9 grains out of my Streamline today: 863, 860, 864, 861, 864, 865, 864, 865, 867, 866, 866, 866, 865, 866, 866, 868, 868, 867, 869, 864, 866, 864, 866, 865, 866, 864, 864, 864, 864, 865, 867, 867, 865. Avg=865 ft/s SD=1.8 ft/s ES=9 ft/s.

All pellets tested had been thoroughly cleaned with Acetone before they were weighed, and all pellets were lubed with Napier Power Pellet Lube and gently rolled on an old soft t-shirt to remove any excess. I hope this post is of benefit to some of you guys trying to get the best accuracy out of your rifles, and get more precise results when you make adjustments to your regulators or hammer spring tension. You can only trust the results of your adjustments if the pellets all weigh the same when you shoot them over the chrono. In some cases people may not need to change their regulator or hammer spring tension at all to get better accuracy...they may just need to start shooting pellets that all weigh the same amount!

I only wish there were a way for a pellet manufacturer to have some kind of device in the assembly line that could electronically weigh and sort pellets to within a tenth of a grain, so that I could count on all of the pellets in a tin weighing the same. But until then I am one airgunner that is absolutely going to be sorting all my pellets according to their weights!
AND FINALLY SAY GOODBYE TO THOSE DARN FLYERS! ;-) 
All the best, Chuck 
 
Hi Birdslayer,
Absolutely cool! I hope you get a quality scale and weigh them all! I promise you will be glad you did! I spent the day verifying the Chairgun ballistics table I made for my Streamline...I had done a preliminary one with my scope set to a new 44 yard zero, and today was to verify the final printout. I use an orange cone with a target on it and shoot at 10,15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 44, & 50 yards and compare how many clicks the ballistic table predicts will be necessary at each different distance, versus the amount of clicks it actually takes in reality. Almost all of them were perfect except the 50 yard prediction was off 1 click...from experience I know that the rest of the ballistics table will be accurate to within 1 or 2 clicks all the way out to 130 yards. So all I have to do is range something with my Midas rangefinder, and then check my new little shot card, put the crosshairs on the target and squeeze the trigger and I am golden! SWEET! ;-)

As far as posting pictures of groups I shoot? I have done so in the past but am kind of past all that now...first of all it is too easy to post a picture of a group shot at close range and say it was shot at whatever yardage someone chooses. If I posted pics of some of my recent 50 yard groups most people would swear they weren't real, and the others would just hate me for bragging. I just say what I do and leave it at that...but if you are going to twist my arm, I will show you a recent group shot at 50 yards that I just had to take a picture of. You guess how many shots are in the group...11, 22, or 33? And by the way those are one inch squares.
All the best, Chuck

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