springer or gas piston ?

[springer]

I have two model IZH 38 rifles, made in the Soviet Union. One has the stock steel spring, the other an aftermarket gas spring. Both have the same replacement piston and breach seals. The gas spring gun has a crisper firing cycle, the steel spring version recoils softly, The gas spring gun has a bit more power. I can't say I prefer either. It is simply a different shooting experience.

 

[maxtrouble]

I purchased a Benjamin gas ram rifle in .25 caliber. 1200 FPS! I cannot hit the broadside of the barn when I am standing inside of the barn! Destroyed the scope that came with the rifle in the first couple of 100 shots. Horrible rifle. It is in my attic. Springers are much better. I shoot them more than my PCP's now.

 

[beerthief]

wonder if anyone has tried to build a Whiscombe type rifle using gas rams ?

 

[nced]

just what is the difference between the actual shooting experience with a springer and a gas piston ?

Years ago I shot two "high power" piston guns, a .25 cal Beeman Kodiac springer and a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum rammer.

The Kodiac was shooting 29 grain domes at 30fpe and I had no issues with cocking and shooting and the shot cycle & accuracy was acceptable, however the size and weight was "non-starter" for me.

A few months later a fellow brought his .20 cal Crow Magnum to a field target match (not yo shoot the targets) so I could check it out claiming he got 3/4" ctc grouping at 50 yards with it. I really didn't get a chance to check the accuracy of the CM because the cocking effort of that gas ram was a GUT BUSTER for me and I only shot it 3 times. The shot cycle was exceptionally sharp which I'm sure would be a "scope buster" (I'm pretty sure the Kodiac would also be scope wrecking) and the trigger was "terrible" compared to my Rekord triggered R9. After the "trial" I decided that if I were given a Crow Magnum for free I'd simply sell it.

 

[RM100GUY]

Years ago I shot two "high power" piston guns, a .25 cal Beeman Kodiac springer and a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum rammer.

The Kodiac was shooting 29 grain domes at 30fpe and I had no issues with cocking and shooting and the shot cycle & accuracy was acceptable, however the size and weight was "non-starter" for me.

A few months later a fellow brought his .20 cal Crow Magnum to a field target match (not yo shoot the targets) so I could check it out claiming he got 3/4" ctc grouping at 50 yards with it. I really didn't get a chance to check the accuracy of the CM because the cocking effort of that gas ram was a GUT BUSTER for me and I only shot it 3 times. The shot cycle was exceptionally sharp which I'm sure would be a "scope buster" (I'm pretty sure the Kodiac would also be scope wrecking) and the trigger was "terrible" compared to my Rekord triggered R9. After the "trial" I decided that if I were given a Crow Magnum for free I'd simply sell it.

Even the Crusader is no joy to cock for an afternoon of shooting...HOWEVER...the little brother Evolution at 12fpe is an entirely different animal...pure joy to shoot...I have both.

 

[KWK]

Years ago I shot two "high power" piston guns, a .25 cal Beeman Kodiac springer and a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum rammer.

The Kodiac was shooting 29 grain domes at 30fpe and I had no issues with cocking and shooting and the shot cycle & accuracy was acceptable, however the size and weight was "non-starter" for me.

A few months later a fellow brought his .20 cal Crow Magnum to a field target match (not yo shoot the targets) so I could check it out claiming he got 3/4" ctc grouping at 50 yards with it. I really didn't get a chance to check the accuracy of the CM because the cocking effort of that gas ram was a GUT BUSTER for me and I only shot it 3 times. The shot cycle was exceptionally sharp which I'm sure would be a "scope buster" (I'm pretty sure the Kodiac would also be scope wrecking) and the trigger was "terrible" compared to my Rekord triggered R9. After the "trial" I decided that if I were given a Crow Magnum for free I'd simply sell it.

Crow Magums, Eliminators, and Kodiac are good wall hangers IMO. Too violent and too heavy. You should try a reasonable weight and powered Theoben. The first generation Siroccos were much better to me. My 177 weighs the same as my R9 or HW95 and shoots very nice at 17 ft lb. Also have one in .22. The trigger won't go 4 oz but not a bad single stage trigger at all. Not so hard to cock either. Has some room to increase or lower power if I want to. The first gen rams aren't as snappy.

 

[beerthief]

thank you . i think i will stick to spring guns as i do not want to amass a lot of guns again . That's not exactly working so well

 

[nced]

Crow Magums, Eliminators, and Kodiac are good wall hangers IMO. Too violent and too heavy. You should try a reasonable weight and powered Theoben. The first generation Siroccos were much better to me. My 177 weighs the same as my R9 or HW95 and shoots very nice at 17 ft lb. Also have one in .22. The trigger won't go 4 oz but not a bad single stage trigger at all. Not so hard to cock either. Has some room to increase or lower power if I want to. The first gen rams aren't as snappy.

"HW95 and shoots very nice at 17 ft lb"
LOL......my new .177 HW95 (bought a few years ago) shot 7.9 grain CPLs @ "too hot for me" 890fps (14 ish fpe) "from the box" after a bore clean and a few settling in shots. I deliberately "detuned" the gun to my personal power level preference of 850fps (tad under 13 ish fpe)...........

LOL....definitely a "different strokes for different folks situation!

 

[crosman2016]

just what is the difference between the actual shooting experience with a springer and a gas piston ?

Well, I own both, and prefer shooting a spring piston over a NP. I don't know about all NP's, but mine seem more "oppressive" compared to my springers. JMHO.

 

[baranjhn]

I have an old BSA Super Meteor MKIII that I put a gas ram in and I love it. Most BSA's can be a bit twangy, but this gas ram gives a smooth thunk. Power is about the same as with the spring @ 9ft. lbs. at the muzzle. The shot cycle feels smoother too.

 

[Ramjet]

I've found them really hard to scope, even with a one piece sportmatch mount with the arrestor pin I still had walk back with the HW90.

Springs are easy to replace and last a hell of a long time before they lose power, I don't see an advantage to a rammer.

 

[c_m_shooter]

A gas ram is better than most stock springers. A tuned springer is better than most gas rams. The problem with the gas rams, is that they are too powerful, so still have the magnum springer hold issues. I want to try a 12 ft lb gas ram, should be the best of both worlds.

 

[KWK]

You can run my 1987 Sirocco Deluxe from about 12 to around 23 (never pumped it that high.). Running 17 right now. Not that hold sensitive. This is an early longer stroke ram. Not an HE ram. I shot it offhand quite a bit.
Rings can't slip. They're screwed to the action. No dovetails.
Weighs the same as an R9. The seals have lasted 34 years. Never been serviced. I have another earlier one in .22. I don't know it's history. It's only running 13ft lb for now.

 

[Sqwirl57]

A gas ram is better than most stock springers. A tuned springer is better than most gas rams. The problem with the gas rams, is that they are too powerful, so still have the magnum springer hold issues. I want to try a 12 ft lb gas ram, should be the best of both worlds.

That new BSA is advertised at 13ftlbs or so. I was definitely tempted to give one a try but at its price point I'd rather get one of those new HW80's

 

[c_m_shooter]

The new BSA will likely be a Christmas present for me. I have gone almost a year without buying a gun or bow, I am due.

 

[Steveoo]

Gas rams, largely worked in the UK when first offered by Theoben in the 90s. The guns were very well engineered, while our 12 Ftlbs (850ish fps .177) restricted the ram to manageable levels. It was when wanting higher power for export to you that things started to go wrong.
So i think the answer to this question is, if running a nice little 11ftlbs Theoben Fenman it could hold its own with a HW35, even edging it for accuracy and making a very good 35 yds field pesting carry.
However, move to the mid 2000s and the game was up for the Gas ram due to the arrival of tuning kits.
Dropping in a nicely fettled HW35 with a VMach kit would kill that Fenman for shooting manners and accuracy.
What with occasional leaking rams, The game was up.

 

[Mycapt65]

A well tuned springer is such a smooth joy to shoot, you get jaded. Untuned, even the Weihrauchs are terribly twangy. I can't bring myself to shoot them in factory form. So IMO they require additional work to make work nice. Especially the newer stuff where the quality control has dipped.

Cheap typically higher power Gas pistons are sharp, hard to cock but have no buzz. They're at least equally hard to shoot and tough on scopes as high power springers. That's because they both have considerable piston mass and travel. What drives that is less important. Gas piston guns usually do make more power than spring guns. Cheap gas piston guns have limited serviceability and often don't last long.

Theoben air piston guns are a completely different design from gas rams and can last nearly forever, therefore I don't classify them with the cheap Gas piston guns. The rest of their shooting attributes are quite similar though.

My preference is for either a quality Theoben piston or a tuned quality springer. I don't like disposable low quality guns. Ymmv

 

[drpietrzak]

All I have experience with is my stock Air Arms TX200 MKIII. It is a fun and enjoyable gun to shoot. It is very accurate out to 50 yards. It will do 2.5 to 3" at 100 on a calm day.

 

[SteveP-52]

I have both. I've also converted a few from spring to gas piston and vice versa. Cocking stroke on a gas ram seems harder simply because the ram is always under full pressure and a bit harder to cock from start to finish unlike a spring which starts slowly and gets harder the more you compress the spring.
Powerwise? There's really not much difference. From the ones I've done, there's only been a 10-15fps difference in power between them. The better Hatsan gas rams also have a bleeder valve on the rear of the ram so if you want to lower the power a bit, you can and get a bit tamer rifle.
Tweaking? You can do all the same things to a gas ram rifle as you can to a springer. Hone, deburr, better lube than the factory uses and at least again with the better Hatsan rams, tinker with that bleed valve, a bit of silicone on the gas ram shaft which helps the orings inside it. vs all the things you can do to a spring.
Scopes? No real difference there either since either version can and will break scopes if you don't buy a good air gun rated scope and good quality rings or a one piece mount for them.
Gas rams are also no more than fickle than springs. I've seen stories of gas rammed and spring guns lasting years right along with stories of gas rams and springs that failed in a few thousand shots. All comes down to the choice of the buyer and which type they want to try spending their money on.

 

[dianap5]

In my personal experience I prefer gas piston although I've only had 2 gas pistons and 3 springers. The higher quality springers seem to be great and just as good as the gas pistons. Its only the cheaper spring guns that I can literally feel the spring. I really enjoy the gas pistons because in my personal experience I have not felt the "release" anywhere near as much as I can feel them with the springs. I guess you could call it twang. I dont enjoy twang. Imo the gas pistons are the closest feel to a real powder cartridge that you can get. I also feel like the gas is easier to cock as its the same throughout the stroke where the springs seem to get progressively harder to cock and kinda need some momentum to get them fully cocked especially on the really powerful springs.