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Removing shooter from equation

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G

greg

Member
Apr 2, 2015
172
11
Washington
Let's say someone is a really poor shot (seeing some of the groups by members here, appears to be true in my case).
That someone buys a descent PCP and would like to know what the *gun* is capable of. How would one remove him/herself from the equation leaving only things inherent to the gun/pellet combo?

I'll start with easy ones: wind and parallax.
Lets assume there is no wind to contend with. Indoor or a really calm day.
Parallax - put a scope cam on, at which point it should be no issue.

Ideas on trigger? Rest? Other less obvious things I missed?

The end goal is simple - its hard looking black cats in dark rooms, especially if there are none. I'd like to know what my rifle/pellet combo is capable of and use that as the benchmark to strive towards in normal shooting session.

Specific example: I can't for the life of me produce 'one hole' or 'pellet on pellet' groups with my PCP (fx Indy 22) at 25 yards. Seems no matter what I do, most groups I get even at that measly range are in 1/3 to 3/4 inch range. 1/4 inch groups are very rare. I've tried literally dozens of pellet types, including the entire JSB, AA and H&N domed lineup and many more (even some exotic ones like EunJin or Apollo Excite). Tried lunbed and dry pellets, cleaning the barrel, shooting in known 'sweet spots' where ES is 1% or better, etc.

Appreciate your thoughts, guys.
 
"KzooRichie"Another would be to ask a great shooter shoot it.
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In this context, the job of a great shooter would be to just "squeeze the trigger real smooth"? :) Or would there be other things like knowing how to rest it, etc? 
E.g. I use a bipod in the front plus sand bags in the rear. Do you think that's inherently "less precise" than a sled, for example?
 
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"wyshadow"I had a neighbor who would clamp his gun down in the lead sled and use an air bladder to trigger the gun.
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Yeah, that's a good idea, I was thinking about something like this for a while. But looking through the scope cam at great magnification, the reticle is very stable, it barely moves. I am having hard time believing that at 25 yards it can result in 3/4 group. Note, I am not talking about flyers. Shots would be evenly distributed.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about: 


P2 means Indy is on power setting 2 (~17fpe)
x6 means a 6 shot group, etc
 
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There are lots of small things done by sooter that influence your point of impact, generaly reffered speaking, accuracy. Check this SCATT reccording of off-hand shooting simulation at 10m (~11 yards). It will give you a better idea about how important is to eliminate even the micro things affecting gun handling, including a way a trigger is pulled. Solid fixation of the gun in a shooting rest would be the first thing to do I suppose.
 
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"ajshoots"What front bipod are you using? I find shooting prone off of bags or benched with a mechanical front rest and rear bag is the best for me. I also shoot more or less free recoil from a bench.
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I use a cheap bipod for the front, and bags in the rear. Nothing is touching the rifle other than the front/rear rests and my finger geeeeently squeezing the trigger (maybe should tune it to be lighter). I guess that's similar to what you are talking about, AJ?
 
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"Drunk"Check this SCATT reccording of off-hand shooting simulation at 10m (~11 yards).
Click to expand...
Very cool! I think one can take the scope cam video and produce a similar "line tracing". I've sort of done this in the past and learned a few things. I.e. the rifle should not be "tensed". If after the shot - it springs in any direction - that's usually a cause for a miss
 
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"SDellinger" 
Taking the shooter out of the equation may show you how the gun performs but it does not necessarily make the gun shoot better.
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That's exactly what I'm looking for, Scott. If gun can't perform under ideal conditions, working on improving ones 'shooting technique' would at best be a waste of time, and at worst can plant wrong ideas on one's head.
 
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"greg"
"KzooRichie"Another would be to ask a great shooter shoot it.
Click to expand...
In this context, the job of a great shooter would be to just "squeeze the trigger real smooth"? :) Or would there be other things like knowing how to rest it, etc? 
E.g. I use a bipod in the front plus sand bags in the rear. Do you think that's inherently "less precise" than a sled, for example?
Click to expand...
I do think that.... Depending on the gun. In a nutshell accuracy is a relative thing. If someone is capable of shooting a gun to acceptable standards than anyone with the necessary skills is capable.

Those skills may just be general knowledge (i.e. Clamping down a springer probably won't help), Springers are hold sensitive; the rest will make a difference. Or a huge difference... Some guys use paint rollers, other guys put drier sheet on the rest. They experimented and found what works best for them, or their gun

Also, trigger pull is as simple as pulling real smooth (hard but not crazy hard) or perfectly, and in sync with breathing and heart beat (rock star skills).

To bottom line it.... If someone is capable of shooting a gun to your your standards, and you are not. It's you and not the gun.



 
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Greg, That bipod is not helping your groups!! The Atlas is about the only bipod worth shooting from if you are trying to shoot tiny groups. I would highly recommend a solid front rest. Doesn't have to be high tech, just a good solid front rest and a good rear bag should help tighten your groups.

http://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Rock-Deluxe-Front-Rifle/dp/B001AT4Q9Q Something like this or similar should help.
 
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AJ, are you suggesting that an Atlas bipod would produce better groups than say a Harris bipod? I'm asking this only because I have a Harris, and there are times I wonder why my groups are inconsistent. Greg and I shot together last summer and we both were scratching our heads at our groups from my FX .25 Bobcat. If an Atlas would help, I'd fork out the bucks in a heart beat
 
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As others have said a bipod is not necessarily conducive to shooting small groups, my Royale 400 performs better off a solid front rest, I use a Caldwell also, with a rear bag but the Harris bipod stays on for general plinking and when the young bloke is shooting as it is convenient. You could also try adjusting your scope so the POI is different to the POA, this helps to keep your aiming mark intact.
 
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Ok, ditched the bipod, bought this and groups are no smaller. Guess the next step would be to get a bladder trigger release, but I seriously doubt at this point that my trigger control is to blame. Looking through the scope cam, I can clearly see the crosshairs stay solidly on the same spot before and after the shot. Still, nowhere near the 1/4 inch that I would expect at 25 yards.
 
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