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Question about Open Division rules

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K9bite

K9bite

Member
May 15, 2022
90
55
AZ, United States
Hey Guys,

Right now I exclusively shoot HFT, but am considering trying my hand at Open Division. I have a question about rules as I experiment with different equipment and positions. In non-forced position lanes is it legal to place a small bag-rest on the forward knee or thigh to support the forend of the gun?

My read of the AAFTA rules is that it isn't legal. The Common Division Rules state, "Other than using aids permitted by specific AAFTA Division Rules (slings, bipods, etc.), the gun must be supported solely by the shooter's hands and body." I don't see anything in the Open Division Rules that specifically allow it. However, I've seen multiple Open Division shooters with thick pads (not knee pads) strapped to their knee or thigh, to rest their gun on. Am I misunderstanding the rules?

Todd
 
You need to read ALL rules (Common/Open/Hunter/WFTF) in order to determine what is allowed in Open Division. Some allowances are specifically listed in the Open Division rules, but other allowances are not. So you must infer from restrictions in the Hunter and WFTF rules as to legality in Open. The Hunter Division Equipment rules say:

“D. Knee pads or other forms of padding or risers placed between the arm, thigh, knee, leg and/or rifle may not exceed 2 inches in thickness.”

That 2 inch thickness restriction in Hunter Division is a good indication that pads of ANY thickness are allowed in Open Division.
 
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I've seen people shoot off a knee bag, especially when shooting a springer without a hamster. I've always assumed it was legal, but worst case scenario you could put a velcro strap on it and call it a knee pad. But reading the rule that Scott posted, I think the "... or other forms of padding" is the key. Oddly enough, the WFTF rules say that only a kneeling roll may be used for kneeling shots. So if I'm reading this correctly, you can use a kneeling roll as a knee pad for Open and WFTF Division, but you can't use a knee bag as a kneeling roll in WFTF Division unless you call it a kneeling roll. I just went down a mental rabbit hole and I no longer know what I'm talking about.
 
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Generally I've seen at major matches a KNEELING ROLL is provided. Some have been Tapered cones, others cylinders.
Best i understand you ARE NOT allowed to use a bumm bag as a kneeling pad within ANY class, be it for your knee or shin areas.

A Knee pad / Rifle support pad used ON TOP of your knee .... Not clear on ? being i don't use one generally.
 
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Motorhead said:
....
Best i understand you ARE NOT allowed to use a bumm bag as a kneeling pad within ANY class, be it for your knee or shin areas.
Click to expand...
Anybody have further clarification on Motorheads comment here?

Pretty typical to see others use a bumbag under the shin for kneeling shots here in AZ, even at AZ State Match. So I've done the same. Knee and foot contacting the ground of course, bum bag under foot end of the shin. That's for Open class, dunno what the WFTFers do.
 
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Was told that doing so allows a cheat to be happening, that of ones BUTT being supported more so or equally so to the support one may claim was on there shin.

Idea with kneeling is to have one sitting on your foots heal ( Not a sideways foot either ! ) The Kneeling roll is ONLY to add support to ones shin taking pressure off the knee on ground as well ones crushed / bent toes.
Essentially sitting on a corner of a bumm bag while in a kneeling position with part of bag on your shin calling it a kneeling support is a FAR STRETCH on what is actually happening IMO.

Any amount of ones BUTT getting support other than your own foot while in a kneeling lane is not legal & cheating best I know.


So play nice here ... I know that likely half or more of those who play Field Target CANNOT sit on there foot ( Butt Contacting there heal ) and have there butt no where near there foot being unsupported which is very unstable !! So ... they sit on corner of a bumm bag to get stable and most who know better look the other way. Why ? Because kneeling correctly via the rules is HARD !! and many of us older folk still wish to shoot and shoot well at all the required disciplines. Don't shoot the messenger :unsure:
 
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I should add that if there's a "knee roll" laying there, I'd have no issue using it over my bumbag. They both do the same thing and I don't see one being an advantage over r the other. Haven't used a knee roll but from the looks of them, they might actually help more than the bum bag, seeing as how they appear to be higher than the bum bag rules allow, therefore offering more support to that shin area.
 
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Franklink said:
Ahh I see (you edited your post). You're saying that the bag under the shin is also supporting bum, not just shin. I can see your reasoning here, although same could be said of the "knee roll."

Im still curious to see what the Easties think and how they do it.
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I've been editing to be more clear ...

Said ... If majority of Bumm Bag is OUTSIDE your kneeling body and only an obvious corner of bag is under shin, yea that does the job.
If Bag is under the kneeling person and a corner in exiting to the outside of shin ... Not so much, as there likely sitting on it IMO.
 
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It's pretty clear in the rules. Let's break it down by division.

WFTF Division Rules
Seating
"The seat can only be used as a seat and not as any other means of shooting support, EXCEPT to support the rear instep/ankle on free-position kneeling shots, or as back support on free-position extreme angle targets. " Note that it says "free-position kneeling", not "forced position kneeling".

Hunter Division Rules
Equipment
"Knee pads or other forms of padding or risers placed between the arm, thigh, knee, leg and/or rifle may not exceed 2 inches in thickness. " So assuming the bum bag is thicker than 2 inches, you can't use it for a kneeling roll in Hunter Division. But wait, there's more...

Open Division Rules
Seating
"The seat can only be used as a seat and not any other means of shooting support, EXCEPT to support the rear instep/ankle in the kneeling position, or as back support on free-position extreme angle targets." So bum bag is ok for kneeling in Open. Let's continue.

Common Division Rules
Equipment
"F. Kneeling rolls may not exceed 7 inches in diameter. "
and
Shooting
" D. A kneeling roll may be used to support the rear instep/ankle in the kneeling position. "

OK, let's finally check the Forced Position Rules.
Forced Shooting Positions
Kneeling
"There shall be only 3 points of contact with the ground (2 feet and 1 knee). The gun must be supported by both hands and one shoulder only. The arm supporting the gun must rest on the knee or leg. The rear foot shall be upright and straight in line with the knee. A legal seat or kneeling roll may be used to support the rear foot and/or ankle, provided that the foot and knee have contact with the ground. The seat may not be used to support the bum or thighs. The leading hand shall support the gun and be unsupported forward of the wrist joint. "
and
"NOTE: WFTF Rules allow only a kneeling roll for rear instep support. "

So assuming the Position Rules over ride the Division rules, looks like every Division except WFTF can use a bum bag as a kneeling roll. They even have a picture of a guy using a bum bag as a kneeling roll in the rule book.
 
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After proof reading my post, I just realized that redacted has been cheating for years. It clearly says "The arm supporting the gun must rest on the knee or leg", but redacted shoots kneelers upright without supporting his (or her) support arm. I think what the rules writers meant to say is "The arm supporting the gun may only rest on the knee or leg".
I removed the name of the shooter that shoots kneelers the hard way, but I'm pretty sure most of us know who I'm talking about if you've ever been to a match with him (or her). I didn't want my commentary on a poorly written rule to turn into a weird witch hunt.
 
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Franklink said:
Anybody have further clarification on Motorheads comment here?

Pretty typical to see others use a bumbag under the shin for kneeling shots here in AZ, even at AZ State Match. So I've done the same. Knee and foot contacting the ground of course, bum bag under foot end of the shin. That's for Open class, dunno what the WFTFers do.
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It’s OK the use the seat as a makeshift “kneeling roll” at AAFTA sanctioned matches. Per the AAFTA kneeling rules:

“…A legal seat or kneeling roll may be used to support the rear foot and/or ankle, provided that the foot and knee have contact with the ground. The seat may not be used to support the bum or thighs. …”

Per AAFTA WFTF Division rules:
“B. The seat can only be used as a seat and not as any other means of shooting support, EXCEPT to support the rear instep/ankle on free-position kneeling shots, or as back support on free-position extreme angle targets.”

If shooting in a real WFTF match (as opposed to AAFTA WFTF Division), only a kneeling roll can be used in a designated kneeling lane, and the kneeling rolls are not allowed for any other purpose.

That free position part was added in 2018 rules. I'm getting old.
 
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scotton said:
…
"NOTE: WFTF Rules allow only a kneeling roll for rear instep support. "

So assuming the Position Rules over ride the Division rules, looks like every Division except WFTF can use a bum bag as a kneeling roll. They even have a picture of a guy using a bum bag as a kneeling roll in the rule book.
Click to expand...
The WFTF rules are not (always ) the same as AAFTA WFTF Division rules. Seat as a kneeling role is OK in all AAFTA Divisions, including WFTF (except in designated kneeling lanes for WFTF Division).
 
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Very informative discussion about Kneeling Roll and/or Bum Bag under the shin for support during kneeling positions. Was helpful, and I learned a lot. Thanks guys.

Back to my original question, which maybe wasn't super clear. I'd like to shoot (non-kneeling or standing lanes) using the deadman position ("indian style", "criss-cross-applesauce"), balancing something like one of these on top of my forward knee to support the rifle's forend (bag is 3-4" tall):

1673400861909.png


Scotchmo says it is legal. Do other concur?

Todd
 
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K9bite said:
…

Back to my original question, which maybe wasn't super clear. I'd like to shoot (non-kneeling or standing lanes) using the deadman position ("indian style", "criss-cross-applesauce"), balancing something like one of these on top of my forward knee to support the rifle's forend (bag is 3-4" tall):

View attachment 321995

Scotchmo says it is legal. Do other concur?

Todd
Click to expand...
In the free position lanes, I use the “deadman” position in both Hunter and Open Divisions. When needed, I’ll use my 2” thick pad between my knee and rifle, or between my knee and leg. I’ve been doing it for years. In Open Division, there is no 2” thick limitation, so you are good to go with your 3-4” tall pad.
 
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