Acceptable offhand group size?

[fuznut]

Off hand is tough and yes fatigue comes on fast. The best I know at it don't make any effort to hold on target. They make figure 8s and try to time the trigger pull. No surprise at shot or trigger squeeze. More like shooting a shot gun than a rifle. If you can shoot moa off hand consistently at 50 yds you could medal at the Olympics.

 

[alpineboard]

I do not have permission to share with this shooter, so I blanked out his likeness.
But this shooter is exceptionally talented and skilled.
This is 50 yard Standing at its best, and done at a National match to boot.

 

[fuznut]

I do not have permission to share with this shooter, so I blanked out his likeness.
But this shooter is exceptionally talented and skilled.
This is 50 yard Standing at its best, and done View attachment 382948 at a National match to boot.

Omg! The messiah has risen lol. I wonder if the top targets were his first or last? But yeah that's world class shooting for sure.

 

[Long_Gun_Dallas]

No worries. Most of the hunting i did back when i was younger was off hand due to using a spring piston rifle. And you couldnt use a sling either because it would move the barrel slightly and alter overall dynamics of the shot cycle. Same with resting it. So, that was very challenging.

The best I could get the fx to shoot at long range required a LOT of tuning and testing projectiles. The long soda straw fx barrels are pretty finicky, but if you can dial it it really well, it will perform. I almost exclusively use the short pellet barrel and converted the long 700mm slug barrel (still have the parts to convert back) so, it is now a 500mm slug/pellet barrel. Much less finicky or ammo picky. Also, the projectile spends less time in the barrel, so pulling a shot has less impact on accuracy. Which is an even bigger advantage of the 380mm barrel.

 

[JDR]

For those that hunt with firearms and muzzle-loaders, the off hand practice and field practice (tripods, monopods, bipods,backpack, trees etc. ) with air rifles is cheap, can shoot a lot more places, safer and beneficial to shooting a firearm. My place to shoot firearms and muzzleloader is 75 minute from my house.. My place to shoot air rifles is in my backyard.

 

[Simplemann]

A very good off hand shooter will almost keep moa

I would disagree on that, I would say that anyone who accomplishes that is not a very good shooter but an olympian level shooter

 

[alpineboard]

The top 2 targets are his sighter warm up shots. Once you start the record shots, you can not go back to sighter shots. 5 shots per bull for record on the bottom 4 bulls.

The Classification groups are as follows, these #'s are the average for Outdoor 3 position , Prone , Kneeling, Standing.

Master = 97 and above
Expert = 94 to 97
Sharpshooter = 91 to 94
Marksman = below 91

Most of all the experienced shooters, clean the prone , and possibly clean or close to it for kneeling.
So with this in mind, the scores for classification are determined on how well a shooter does on the Standing Position.

If anyone has interest, here is a pdf on the rules.

View attachment nra-smallbore-rifle-rules.pdf

If attempting to shoot this course of fire or "Standing only" with an "air rifle', there is a much higher level of difficulty to be added here.

 

[Vana2]

Being hunting/pesting/plinking orientated it's not the distance, it's the accuracy that matters to me.

Nothing wrong with shooting paper (do that often) and checking group size at some distance will give you an idea of how you did and provide a reference for checking improvement. I suggest that a more structured/systematic approach that shooting at a distant target would yield better results.

For me, it's not how big/small the group size at distance "X" but rather I want determine what my maximum off-hand range is for consistently putting all shots in a one inch circle.

...so, considering the one inch kill-zone on a rabbit or squirrel I want to know what the distance is that I can shoot at and be sure to make a humane kill, with that particular rifle (or pistol, or bow or slingshot) under those conditions.

My approach to off hand shooting is to start CLOSE (like 10 feet close) and shoot 10 for 10 inside one inch. After 10/10-1" I move back a step and shoot again. It's easy at first but quickly becomes challenging as the distance increases.

Once you can do one inch off-hand groups at 20-25 yards you will be shooting consistently enough to put a target "way out there" to see what you can do. Before then you're just guessing.

Just my 2 cents.

Enjoy your shooting - however you like to do it!

Cheers!

 

[markhooper]

I was also taught this by my dad. The right length sling is about much more than just carrying the gun. This is one reason I prefer traditional stocks on my field guns. I also prefer traditional iron sights, though that limits my range a bit due to aging eyes. I'll grab a gun with a scope out past 35-40 yards. And yes, if hunting and not just challenging myself, I will brace against available stable objects as well.

I do like the wider slings for carrying but the straight 1" adjustable is a lot better for bracing.. you are a lot like me as currently I only shoot open sights, and I was good with Henry golden boy 22 out to 1/4 mile.. and that's got a drop of around 30 ft low so a lot of compensation and well lead time for wind or running target.. still prefer to brace against anything available.. I was really hoping I could stretch out to 1/4 mile away with my American tactical liberty nova 22 caliber, it's the best I could afford at the time, but it's only good to 160 yards and at 170 turns into a scatter gun and every shot missed the 24" target.. with the rimfire I could constantly hit a 6" metal target.. I just like trying to do Quigley challenge shooting a lot.. love to shoot and then count the seconds until you hear the twang or if you miss the puffs of dust.. thinking about trying a 30 caliber PCP at some point and see if it holds flight better than the 22 PCP.. I took prefer traditional wood stocks for balance.. hopefully in a week or so I'll have glasses and well since a lot of PCP rifles don't come with any way to get open sights, well maybe a scope could be in my future.. without the glasses I saw 4 cross hairs and none of them seemed right

 

[elh0102]

If you want to be humbled, take a look at the National Match service rifle scores sometime. The standing event is 20 shots, 200 yards, no sling support. The 10 ring is 7" and the X ring is 3". The winning score I just saw was a 199-8X. Remember, that is a service rifle, iron sights, 4.5 pound trigger. These folks understand marksmanship.

 

[Long_Gun_Dallas]

My primary issue with the off-hand group thing is that typically I can nail the first shot, maybe the second, and it's all downhill from there because you're not really meant to hold a rifle like that steady for an extended period of time. If I'm hunting, this is completely unrealistic. It is 1 shot, then quite a period of time before another is taken. IF another is taken. IF it is even off-hand again (it usually is not). But maybe 20-30 percent of my shots are.

Now, if you just want to challenge yourself or others, that's completely different. Just in my mind, I have no use for that. However. Practice above and beyond what will be needed can likely only help. But there is another side to this that if your performance declines from fatigue this can damage your confidence in either yourself, your skills, or tools.

Just my $.02

 

[elh0102]

My primary issue with the off-hand group thing is that typically I can nail the first shot, maybe the second, and it's all downhill from there because you're not really meant to hold a rifle like that steady for an extended period of time. If I'm hunting, this is completely unrealistic. It is 1 shot, then quite a period of time before another is taken. IF another is taken. IF it is even off-hand again (it usually is not). But maybe 20-30 percent of my shots are.

Now, if you just want to challenge yourself or others, that's completely different. Just in my mind, I have no use for that. However. Practice above and beyond what will be needed can likely only help. But there is another side to this that if your performance declines from fatigue this can damage your confidence in either yourself, your skills, or tools.

Just my $.02

Target competition and practical field shooting are very different. The army would say that the National Match competition produces better field soldiers. But the reality, those folks are all about winning championships. I think that any field soldier or marine would tell you that you take advantage of every support for your rifle, hopefully something that will stop a bullet!

 

[alpineboard]

Pulled back to 50 yards tonight Standing. 1 5/8" and 1 1/4" 5 shot group sizes. The jsb mrd pellet makes a different hole in paper than slugs.

Try to relax as much as possible, prep for your next shot by relaxing and taking at least 6 full relaxed breaths, rest your rifle on a tripod in between shots, get a sequence that you are comfortable with, and adapt if needed. Work on your body position of hold, at the beginning of learning curve, it will take time to get a good position formed. Always working on your method, and adapt to new styles, as your skill grows. Stay at it, it is hard work, but well worth it once it is obtained.
Am using a new to me at outdoor air rifle, last May, FX Crown GRS, 700mm, 22 cal, Boss trigger installed and set as light as possible., Total gun weight = 12 pounds. and using an older Simmons 20x power scope.
When you gently squeeze the trigger, and release it, pretend that the arm is not loaded and will go click, like dryfiring, this eliminates any and all self induced movement of the arm, before during and after firing. Hold your sight picture for a few seconds after the shot.
All this is simple, but easier said than done.
On the second bull, the first 2 shots were x's, def needed to keep cool and not blow it.

Lastly, from your pictures, you have a lot of potential and talent. What you should be thinking of is a training schedule and develop this talent into a higher level skill set, which sounds like is your goal and desire, Best wishes for you, R
I have more training hints.

 

[alpineboard]

Analyze your shots, what did you do correctly, what did you not do correctly.
You have some good groupings here, take your time and repeat this, learn from what you did wrong.
The ones that are out there, you most prob moved the gun before the shot was executed, answer here is, keep the gun up there/sights lined up for a second or 2 after the shot has been fired.
Another good mode to be in, is to relax and take your time with every shot, there is no hurry. Example, my previous target, was 20 shots, it takes approx 20 or 30 minutes to shoot this. Warming up shots, beginning shots, maybe 2, 3 or 4 tries to get 1 shot off, resting in between each attempt. Then once you start to feel good, in the zone, things start to go along at a slightly faster pace.
I like the quote from Ginny Thrasher, 10 meter air rifle champ, "shooting is a sport where you get to choose how good you want to be"
IMO, you will get to your goal stated in your original post, and hopefully get hooked on Standing in the process. Stay positive, you have 5 out of 10 shots in a good group, next time try for 6 out of 10 for good shots, then 7, etc. Do not get discouraged if you have a bad night, "All training is Good training", accept that there will be good nights, average nights, and bad nights. But it is still shooting and all shooting is Good!
Another few items to consider, all heat and how hot it gets is clothing, 1 or 2 tee shirts and then a heavy sweat shirt allows for a more stable, less bounce standing hold position, a leather glove for the front support hand is also good. Solid foot wear. ear plugs, and/or muffs.

Your idea for shooting for center of a white target is very good for beginners, you will do better with this method, then once you start to do a black bullseye, it puts more pressure on you to hit it, so you may not do as well, keep at it, it gets better.

 

[Septicdeath]

This one today at 40 yards offhand 5 shots with MM XS25 .177 at 6 inch splatter target

 

[alpineboard]

Very surprised at last nights 5 shot 50 yard standing group, I do not think this can be done again, standing or bench.

 

[Septicdeath]

Today off hand open sights at 40 yards 105X .22 first five and second five. Okay but could be better

 

[Septicdeath]

My primary issue with the off-hand group thing is that typically I can nail the first shot, maybe the second, and it's all downhill from there because you're not really meant to hold a rifle like that steady for an extended period of time. If I'm hunting, this is completely unrealistic. It is 1 shot, then quite a period of time before another is taken. IF another is taken. IF it is even off-hand again (it usually is not). But maybe 20-30 percent of my shots are.

Now, if you just want to challenge yourself or others, that's completely different. Just in my mind, I have no use for that. However. Practice above and beyond what will be needed can likely only help. But there is another side to this that if your performance declines from fatigue this can damage your confidence in either yourself, your skills, or tools.

Just my $.02

My first five or six are usually my best off hand. And your right the first is the best 9 times out of 10. But it is good practice for hunting, there's not always something to rest on. In that situation you only need the one good shot. Fatigue does come into play when shooting offhand. But doing it standing, knelling, sitting etc makes you better.

 

[AirShot]

Years back we went to a FT club that specialized in offhand FT. Needless to say I was embarrssed at my offhand shooting. Spent the next year learning and practicing offhand, went back the following year and won the spring gun class. Went to Indiana for there state match that same year, ended up tied for first place, so many shootoffs were taken, still tied so they went to offhand at 50 yds at empty shotgun shell casings. We both hit the first three, then my competitor missed his fourth but I hit mine. One year, 35 shots most everyday, the practice paid off !! Gotta learn the stance and get your rifle set up so you can repeat that hold every time...

 

[alpineboard]

A tripod is used to rest the rifle on, in between shots, but at certain level, shooters hold the rifle up continuously.